IanW Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Hello all, my wife was left a 1921 New Freeman . We know very little about it and internet research has really drawn a blank. I attach a bunch of photos. The unit is in excellent condition apart from the green felt on the turntable itself. It has some tins of needles and small wooden pieces?? We also have 4 albums of records in pristine condition and probably (and most importantly) the original receipt from 1921. Is there anyone who might know the history of this machine and be able to value it for insurance purposes? Thank you in advance for any and all help. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted April 15 Share Posted April 15 Very interesting. I think you can accurately call just a "Freeman". The "New" seems to be just the description in the bill-of-sale that suggests that it's not "used". Just my take on that of course. The little wooden bits are bamboo needles, used in place of steel needles. With a proper tool, they can be resharpened and reused when worn. I love that original bill-of-sale! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanW Posted April 15 Author Share Posted April 15 Thank you Jerry....makes perfect sense! I wasn't sure! And thank you for the info on the needles...very interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) Welcome to the forum, @IanW (I live outside Nashville, so I have a connection to/interest in Freeman.) The Freeman Talking Machine Co. was founded in late 1918, by brothers Edward and William Freeman. They were the sons of Lewis Ross Freeman, a prominent late 19th century Nashville interior designer. He helped design the interiors of some of Nashville's wealthiest homes, including Belmount mansion. After he died in 1904, his sons took over the business. (Let me add a little context.) By the 1910s the major phonograph patents started to expire, allowing anyone to build or assemble their own without facing legal challenges. This made the phonograph market quite lucrative, leading to a surge in manufacturing. National and local department stores, piano companies, furniture makers all began to introduce their own phonographs. I kid not, between 1915-1925 there were around 500 phonograph brands in the US alone. The market was so oversaturated if a maker wanted to stand out, they'd add or invented a gimmick. William Freeman invented a horn that used glass reflectors. (If you remove the grille you'll see them inside.) If it did anything to enhance or improve the sound quality is debatable, but it's a neat idea, nonetheless. Freeman only made the cabinet and horn, getting the mechanical parts (motor, tonearm, reproducer) from suppliers who mass-produced them for anyone assembling their own phonographs. They made four models between 1918-1922. Your model B was the second in the lineup, behind the top-of-the-line model A. In August 1922, their cabinet factory suffered a fire, putting an end to production. Not long after, they attempted to make phonographs again but didn't really get off the ground. In regard to a valuation, Freeman is considered an "off brand" here in the collecting community. (A local one at that.) It doesn't have much desirability, other than the Nashville connection. (Since it's not that different from 100 other machines of the period.) In the almost ten years I've documented Freemans, I've seen around a dozen, but rarity doesn't equate to value. The record albums are cool! While they were made by a national company that just stamped Freeman in. I'd be ecstatic if I found one. The original receipt is also really nice to have. I also have a model B with a lower serial number without the slide volume control, meaning it was added mid production. While it's nice they're with the machine, they won't add much to the overall value. It's a similar story with the records. They look original, but most uncatalogued 78s sell for around a dollar a piece. I'd put a non-retail valuation around $150-$350, and an insurance value around $500-$800. Edited April 17 by BenL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanW Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 Thank you so much! It was fantastic to find out so much from you on the history of this machine! And also the flyer/advertisement for the Models....wow! My wife and I are extremely appreciative to you for answering my questions and being so thorough. We're not entirely sure what we're going to do with it yet, but having the back story will certainly help. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 (edited) On 4/16/2024 at 6:42 PM, IanW said: Thank you so much! It was fantastic to find out so much from you on the history of this machine! And also the flyer/advertisement for the Models....wow! My wife and I are extremely appreciative to you for answering my questions and being so thorough. We're not entirely sure what we're going to do with it yet, but having the back story will certainly help. It is a great machine, that I hope you're able to keep in your family. I'm not sure if you've tried to play it, but I'll go over the basics: Steel needles are designed for only one play. And I wouldn't recommend using the ones that have been with it. It can be a little tricky to discern a new one from one that's been used. (The more a needle has been used, the more wear it'll put on the record.) As @Jerry mentioned, the little "blocks" are fiber needles. They were designed to add very little wear and could be resharpened for multiple plays. (Even if one has been used, the sound quality won't be great but will still put little wear on the record.) You can get a pack of new needles of eBay. Which brings me to my next point: If you intend to seriously play it, I'd have it serviced. Having the motor cleaned, and the reproducer rebuilt, will not only improve sound quality, but will also reduce record wear... If the motor isn't thumbing too bad, you could get away with oiling it with penetrating oil. (That's a quick fix but it won't last long, and the motor will eventually need to be serviced.) Rebuilding a reproducer isn't too hard, if you're a little handy. You can get the supplies also off eBay, or just ship it off to a collector who rebuilds for a charge. It looks like it's in a garage or a storage unite? If its climate controlled, you won't have to worry, but if not, it'll dull the finish over time. These little things will help increase the value, not much, but could be good justification for a collector. The albums, needle tins, records and the receipt have value in themself. The Victor needle tins are very collectible, the Silvertone box not as much. As badly as I want to make an offer on the receipt and albums, I won't dare separate them. (They've been with it for 100 years and deserve to be with it 100 more.) If you want to get a basic idea of your records, the website discogs can be a good resource. (While it doesn't have every early 78, it does have the more common ones.) If you want to use eBay, make sure you set it to show the sold prices and not the list prices. (There's a big difference in what someone is asking for a record vs. what it's sold for.) If you intend to use it more, I'd suggest checking out the beginner section:(https://www.antiquephono.org/#/collectiondetails/16) Here's also a manual for a Silvertone. (Sears' house brand.) While it is a different brand with different hardware, it's from a machine of the same period and will give the basics in operations:(https://www.nipperhead.com/old/silver.htm) Edited April 18 by BenL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanW Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 Wow! again.....thank you so much. Rarely these days do people to go to such lengths and effort to help people out. Very appreciated and I shall take everything into consideration that you've told me. You restore my faith in mankind! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtA Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 That is a nice machine, especially with the family back story... I hope you decide to keep it and enjoy it, while continuing the family connection. If you look at the ad you'll realize how lucky you are to have it - only "one hunered" were offered through the phonograph club... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, CurtA said: That is a nice machine, especially with the family back story... I hope you decide to keep it and enjoy it, while continuing the family connection. If you look at the ad you'll realize how lucky you are to have it - only "one hunered" were offered through the phonograph club... LOL I think that's in relation to the records? My model B is #5049. Edited April 18 by BenL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granby Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 This is a great find and great information provided by BenL. As others have said, enjoy it! Those regional off brands are really cool. Although they don't command the monetary value compared to other phonographs, their stories are sometimes quite interesting, if I do say so myself! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanW Posted April 19 Author Share Posted April 19 You have all been very helpful..... what a great site! If anyone is interested, this is the record collection that we have with it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanW Posted April 19 Author Share Posted April 19 I'm hoping my wife lets me keep it as I love the history behind it.......however, she's not so keen; she thinks it's an 'eyesore' as she puts it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, IanW said: I'm hoping my wife lets me keep it as I love the history behind it.......however, she's not so keen; she thinks it's an 'eyesore' as she puts it! Hopefully, she'll appreciate your enjoyment of it. Edited April 19 by Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtA Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 The record collection is a nice, period selection with a lot of variety... "Eyesores" are subjective, so it might take an adjustment period to really appreciate it. I would love to have a piece of family history, but it takes getting through younger age to fully appreciate the connection... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtA Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 On 4/17/2024 at 9:51 PM, BenL said: I think that's in relation to the records? My model B is #5049. Maybe, but I'm still trying to figure out how many is "One Hunered"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 It's Three Hunered minus Two Hunered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) @IanWThat's a nice collection of records. Nothing crazy rare, but a good look into the 1920s. Based off the spreadsheet, I'd say around 2/3rds are original and likely came with it. (Being from the same year or within one +/- year when the machine was bought.) The rest being prior to 1930. If you decide to get it serviced, be cautious playing later electric records, as it can't play just any 78. This machine is really only designed for pre-1930 acoustically recorded... That's a good reason for fiber needles. They'll let you play electrically recorded records from the mid to late 20s, up until the early 1930s. It's best not play 78s from the mid 1930s into the 1950s. Remember, the later the record, the faster it'll wear. Edited April 22 by BenL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) 3 hours ago, CurtA said: Maybe, but I'm still trying to figure out how many is "One Hunered"??? I didn't even notice the typo in the ad. lol "Ten Double Records FREE-Membership limited to one Hunered" Edited April 21 by BenL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 You can play any 78 record on your machine, except for the very late vinyls. My VV-XI handles 1930-1950 recordings beautifully. The electrical jazz, big band, swing era, pop vocals, you name it. But sonically dense music (e.g., symphonic) sounds better on the Orthophonic! As for record wear, I haven’t noticed any. Use a fresh steel needle for every playing and make sure your sound box is in good shape (pliable gaskets, good diaphragm), and you’ll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenL Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Henry said: You can play any 78 record on your machine, except for the very late vinyls. My VV-XI handles 1930-1950 recordings beautifully. The electrical jazz, big band, swing era, pop vocals, you name it. But sonically dense music (e.g., symphonic) sounds better on the Orthophonic! As for record wear, I haven’t noticed any. Use a fresh steel needle for every playing and make sure your sound box is in good shape (pliable gaskets, good diaphragm), and you’ll be fine. I’m not trying to be argumentative, I know this is a debated topic in the hobby. But it’s really not recommended to play post 1930 electric records with a steel needle on a machine like this. Just because you can’t hear any wear, doesn’t mean it isn’t causing any… I stand by my earlier post. Edited April 22 by BenL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanW Posted April 22 Author Share Posted April 22 Thank you guys.... very informative. Still working on my wife to let me get it serviced and keep it! We shall see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 16 hours ago, BenL said: I’m not trying to be argumentative, I know this is a debated topic in the hobby. But it’s really not recommended to play post 1930 electric records with a steel needle on a machine like this. Just because you can’t hear any wear, doesn’t mean it isn’t causing any… I stand by my earlier post. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtA Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 "I’m not trying to be argumentative, I know this is a debated topic in the hobby. But it’s really not recommended to play post 1930 electric records with a steel needle on a machine like this." Some people say it's not recommended to play 'ANY' records on these primitive machines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 (edited) 14 minutes ago, CurtA said: "I’m not trying to be argumentative, I know this is a debated topic in the hobby. But it’s really not recommended to play post 1930 electric records with a steel needle on a machine like this." Some people say it's not recommended to play 'ANY' records on these primitive machines... I'll not be one of their number....😇 Edited April 22 by Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtA Posted April 22 Share Posted April 22 I'm still standing by my post... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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