Looking for ways to fix a horn, spanish HMV

[Hogan]

Hello All

I´m looking for ways to clean/better this horns appearance. It´s a number 5 Spanish La Voz de su Amo, from 1911 as far as I can see. Anyway, it exactly matches the 1911 catalogue -

I´ve seen several variations of the number 5, with different colour horns, wooden horns, double spring motors... This one has a single spring motor. The first picture is as found - it had all the original pieces intact except the turntable felt, the horn seemed to have been damaged recently where the metal shines through. I´ve painted those areas, matching the colour as well I could. The rest I´ve tried to clean gently using nothing but water and a tiny bit of soap. Nothing happened. Then I tried one of those "magic sponges" and it seemed to get dirty but I see no difference on the horn. 

As you can see in the photographs the horn has spots of rust from beneath the original paint - obviously nothing can be done about that. But the topside of the horn (inside and outside) is much dirtier than the rest - it looks like it sat for 70 years in an attic, the dirt slowly piling up on top of it. It probably did. It wont come off. I haven´t tried any chemicals yet. The paint seems prone to flake off easily too as you can see in the pictures. As for now I´m only working with the horn, I´ll get back to the rest further on... In the sunlight the horn looks a lot better, but inside a house it looks a bit dirty and I would like to get more  out of it!

¿Any ideas? ¿Suggestions? 

H

 

 

 

[BruceW]

Hello Hogan,  I will start by saying you have found an absolutely stunning machine and horn.  My experience with these painted European horns is that the paint almost becomes stained and as you have noted very fragile.   The paint is susceptible to rusting and flaking. 

I have had good success with non pumice hand cleaner (Gojo) with 0000 steel wool.  Be very careful as you could pull off the flakes and wear down the remaining paint very quickly.  So only use where there is built up dirt, not discolored paint.  

Photos are always deceiving but your horn is spectacular as is and leaving it after just washing with mild soap and water would be ok.

Once I have cleaned each horn I wax them with Renaissance Wax which should make your yellows and reds in this horn pop.

 

Good luck as this machine and horn are well worth it.

 

Bruce

[Jerry]

The horn is absolutely beautiful as is. Your light cleaning is all that it needs. Please do not use anything potentially abrasive, such as the steel wool mentioned above. on other horns this may be okay, but not this one. Anything like that will remove the red shading. Please appreciate that it's actually in fantastic condition, given its very old and delicate finish. 

[Hogan]

Thanks for your kind words! Yes maybe to just "let it be" is the way to go! That´s what I´ll do if nothing else comes up. I´d be willing to experiment a little with the Go-Jo on some out of the way spot to see how that comes out - but i can´t find it in Europe.

There are a couple of spots on top where some type of liquid has fallen at some point - and left the paint perfect, you can see it on the photo of the horns backside. But what liquid!? I´ve seen some of these horns that have lost almost all of their paint so things could be worse!!

Here are a couple of pictures of an identical horn (and gramophone) that must have lived a more protected life: this is what it must have looked like originally... I wonder if they´ve varnished it? It looks very glossy, but I´m quite sure it´s original - I hope it´s ok I borrowed the photos from Iber antiques! They have water stamps too and I mention them here! They´re online with other sprectacular spanish gramophones they´ve sold over the years. They are not cheap - usually 3000 euros or more, but then there are very few of them around! I´ve found nothing online on how many were made or anything else. Quite a few models existed and the number 5 seems to have been one of the most popular- it´s also my favourite, I like the proportions with the big horn and small box. It would be interesting to know more about the spanish/french HMV! My decal says both "La compania Francesa del gramophone" on the backside and Spain in other places.

Any other ideas that have not been mentioned about the horn are welcome!

[Hogan]

Well, to continue the restoration (I'm still hoping I'll find some way to clean the horn a bit more, maybe in the future!) 

The box had been "fixed up" by a friend of the lady who sold it to me. He had put a few Philips screws on the inside - supposedly to consolidate the box and since they seem to be doing the job I've left them there, they can only be seen when you lift the lid .

Then he had painted the whole box with something, looks like dirty shellack? Even the brake - everything. See pictures. So far I've managed to scrape off the paint everywhere except for the bottom part, without damaging the original surface. On the bottom part its stuck and I don't know what to do. Suggestions welcome!!! If I use alcohol that would dissolve the ugly paint if its shellack - but also the original surface beneath it would dissolve...

I've cleaned the wood and its a lovely red colour. Apparently it's mahogany according to the catalogue.

Also there were holes from woodworm, I've treated the box with woodworm poison so they're gone, then filled the holes with the appropriate color wood paste. You can hardly see the holes now.

 

If there is any interest I'll keep posting on how the restoration advances. The first 4 pics are before, the rest after 

[Hogan]

[Jerry]

YES! Please keep the pictures coming! This is a wonderful machine, very rarely seen in the USA. It's a treat to follow your restoration and see things up close and in detail.

[Hogan]

The brake didn't work, there was a strange lever (picture), so I sent for a new one and installed it, but it still won't work, the leather doesn't reach the edge of the turntable. What to do!? It seems to need new and longer leather? Or another spring inside? Does anyone know how these bullet brakes work? 

The brake was covered with paint which came off, there was not a lot of nickel left so It just cleaned the metal and that's the way it'lll have to stay, I prefer everything to look more or less evenly aged.

[Jerry]

You will need to replace the leather. A common replacement is made from cutting off a length of round leather belting, as commonly used on old fashioned treadle sewing machines.

 

However, another thing to consider is that, since the new brake lever appears to be a reproduction, and since not all reproductions are created equal**, you may need to examine the shape of the cam surface on the lever to see if it allows the brake to extend properly. Honestly, in your photos, there does not seem be an appreciable difference in brake extension between the applied & released positions.

 

**No intended criticism towards the maker of this particular lever.

Edited March 12 by Jerry

[Hogan]

I think you're right, maybe I can reshape the lever - or make one that opens and shuts with "more space". A project indeed, yes it is a replacement I sent for, new.

Finding an original is improbable - maybe I could have found one on the TMF but the moderator won't let me become a member which is weird. Anyway I will let this restoration rest for 6 weeks or so since I'll be out of the country, but I'll be back.

[CurtA]

A new piece of leather cut to the right size will fix your brake - replace the lever with the original part and leave it original, as found.  If you really want a replacement brake, look for a Victor or HMV bullet brake from a horn machine - not too hard to locate... 

 

As far as the horn is concerned, leave it alone - do not apply varnish or anything else over the original paint.  Cleaning the horn with hand cleaner or other cleaners may remove the paint, black pinstriping or the decal.  Clean the wood cabinet, but not the painted parts.  Basically, there is nothing to "restore" - this machine is in great condition - don't chance ruining it by trying to make it look "perfect", it's 120 years old...

Edited March 14 by CurtA

[Hogan]

Yes, thanks, can you guide me on how to replace the leather? Is it by pulling the old leather out with players?

As for the lever, the "original" lever did not work at all it only cut your thumb. The real lever must have broken and this was someones attempt to fix it, see photo, it never belonged to a gramophone. I don't want to replace the brake, just make it work. New leather is probably the best solution!

 

Another question is the turntable felt. The Spanish original was gone, they make good replicas of the ones with the logo on but they look so new to my taste. I suspect they came in different colours, I've seen original green and blue. Just plain red felt could look nice with this horn maybe?

 

 

[Jerry]

Use a small drill to remove the old leather. I don't know off hand what size drill. Start small and work your way up until all of the old leather has been removed. However, if you can pull it out with a plier then that's okay too. Chances are however, that some will remain in the hole. Before removing the old leather, measure how far it sticks out and how far it will need to stick out in order to do its job. I've been guilty of inserting new leather that ended up being too short... just like the old one.

[Hogan]

Ok thanks. I just saw that on my other gramophone there's what looks like an identical brake: I'll take off the lever on that one first and bring it to Spain and see if it's the replacement lever or the leather that is the problem here, if

they are the same I'll drill