Help identifying this strange phonograph

[OddBell]

Hey everyone, 

 

I'm new to this forum and the hobby. I just bought a phonograph from an antique shop recently and I can find almost no info on it. Any help with finding info would be greatly appreciated!

[MisterJive47]

That is BIZARRE! The lack of cabinet, horizontal placement of the reproducer for standard lateral cut discs, and the ratchet winding lever mechanism combination is nothing like I've seen before. Nice find! Congratulations! Does she run?

[OddBell]

Thanks, it runs but not well so I'm trying to figure out how to disassemble and clean it. Just got new needles and replacement gaskets for the diaphragm, which I think is tin or aluminum, since they're dry rotted. Hopefully the spring is fine and I only need to clean and regrease it because I have no idea what type of spring to replace it with lol. Overall everything seems to work fine but I'm still new to this hobby so I could very well break it in the process of restoring it.

[Tinfoilphono]

What an interesting machine! I've been in the hobby for over 60 years and that is a first for me. I like it a lot for its quirky design. Nice find.

[OddBell]

Thanks, that's what drew me to it, the name Bell really grabbed my attention but I later realized it was because of the shape of the body rather than some connection to the famous inventor. Any tips for cleaning the internals? Would an antique clock repair shop be able to help since the parts are similar?

[phonogfp]

Welcome to the hobby!

 

A Bell phonograph was featured in Phonographs with Flair by Fabrizio & Paul:

 

 

I've seen only 3-4 of these over the years.  Form following function indeed!

 

If you're like most of us here, the bug may bite you, and being a newcomer, you'll find lots of items you've never seen.  While it's a fun and exciting stage of development, it's also somewhat hazardous in that knowledge is not equal to enthusiasm.  In the long term (and possibly short term as well), education will be your friend.  There are many books to help you, and a good step is to read some of the free articles on the APS website and decide what interests you: cylinder or disc, external-horn or internal-horn machines, U.S. or foreign-made machines, a particular company, a particular era, etc...  Even an overall introductory "Compendium" is available.  Once you decide on where to start, we can make suggestions for you.

 

Again, welcome!

 

George P.

[OddBell]

Wow thank you for the source. Ive been wanting to get a phonograph for a while because i love things that are purely mechanical and self powered. Not sure what direction I want to go in but I do appreciate the more unusual models, the lamp phonograph comes to mind.

 

It says the patent was approved but on the bottom of mine it only says "patent applied for". Would it normally not give the patent number or do I maybe have a version that predates the patent being approved?

 

Any advice on cleaning and restoration would be greatly appreciated. Someone mentioned to me the book, "The Compleat Talking Machine", is this a good resource?

[Jerry]

Deleted.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Jerry

[phonogfp]

2 hours ago, OddBell said:

Wow thank you for the source. Ive been wanting to get a phonograph for a while because i love things that are purely mechanical and self powered. Not sure what direction I want to go in but I do appreciate the more unusual models, the lamp phonograph comes to mind.

 

It says the patent was approved but on the bottom of mine it only says "patent applied for". Would it normally not give the patent number or do I maybe have a version that predates the patent being approved?

 

Any advice on cleaning and restoration would be greatly appreciated. Someone mentioned to me the book, "The Compleat Talking Machine", is this a good resource?

 

You'll find many items marked "Patent Applied For" since manufacturers were not required to delay production until the patent was awarded.  Sometimes machines can be roughly dated by comparing the "Patent Applied For" (sometimes "Patent Pending") and the patent number or patent date being stamped on the item.  If you know when the patent was issued, it can offer a rough milestone - keeping in mind that it might take some time before the factory changed the marking and worked its old inventory through the system.

 

The Compleat Talking Machine is an excellent book, and if you're planning to learn how to do some or all of the restoration yourself (which is highly recommended), the book is essential.  The last edition (5th) also contains some general history and images of various makes of talking machines. 

 

By the way, here is a link for those free articles on the APS website.  Note that the Table of Contents comprises two pages:

 

https://www.antiquephono.org/#/collection/1

 

George P.

[CurtA]

What a great find for a first machine...  I love odd phonographs and hope I find one of these someday before my warranty expires...😉

 

[CurtA]

Just a thought...  If you plan to "restore" it, it only needs careful cleaning - NOT repainting and just because the turntable felt looks a little rough - don't replace it.  You won't be able to find the correct color, anyway and green is not a good choice.  Be careful to preserve and protect the original decal and before starting to clean, take a good high quality, clear, closeup picture of it just in case something goes wrong...  Better safe than sorry.

Edited September 22, 2023 by CurtA

[CurtA]

After  cleaning the dirt off, with water - no spray cleaners, like kitchen or bathroom cleaners or GOOP/GOJO (they might remove the decal).   Spray a small amount of WD40 on a clean cloth and wipe down the black painted parts - it will rejuvenate the paint and shouldn't hurt the decal...  This should make a noticeable difference.

[OddBell]

I did exactly that, just wiped it down with filtered water and dabbed around the decals. What are your thoughts on putting a thin clear coat over the decal to protect it? I think i might have read one of your posts on here because i remembered the part about not replacing the felt, i ended up buying a new felt disc to go over the original one so it doesnt get any worse and still looks good. I didn't know about that trick with the wd40 so thanks for that. Besides the paint there are chips out of it that have started to rust a little, is there a way to get that off with a solvent that won't damage the original paint?

[MisterJive47]

Yes, The Compleat Talking Machine is an excellent primer for newbies, and even a refresh for seasoned hobbyists. As CurtA said, be especially careful with any cleaning of the finish and DON'T replace the felt.  The originality on a machine this rare is half of the appeal, and the cosmetic condition of the one you found is incredible. 

[OddBell]

After now hearing from everyone about how unique and rare this is I'm definitely going to be very careful when restoring it and try to keep everything original. As soon as I get it apart I'll post more pics so you all can see the guts of it. The mechanics inside look a bit larger and more crude than other ones I've seen from small portable devices like this one but I assumed it's because this is one of the company's earliest models.

[CurtA]

I wouldn't put a clear coat over the decal, mainly because it is permanent.  Don't be afraid to try the WD40 trick, I have used it for years with no adverse effects.  After applying it, wipe off any excess, It won't hurt the finish but will restore the dull, dried out paint.  I have used it for all painted surfaces, including my BMW and I clean worn records with it... no problems in 40 years.  It will also prevent/reduce rusting.  Don't try spot removing rust spots - it will damage the finish and make them more noticeable.  On black japanned paint a Sharpie marker will touch them up, but you need to go over them with WD40 to make them blend in afterward.

Here is a review from a long time collector who used my method successfully:

https://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=54968&p=331745#p331745

 

[OddBell]

I can't wait to try that out, and it sounds like that guy has come up with a good mix of oil and grease for lubricating the spring that I might try too. 

 

By the way this was one of the only pieces of info I could find after I first bought it.

 

https://mus-col.com/en/collection/mmp/turntable/gramophones/21389/

 

Someone from the phonograph subreddit also found 2 that went to auction in the last 5 years.

[CurtA]

The paint on yours will look as good as the one in the museum and your decal is much better...

[CurtA]

The on/off lever and speed control have a little surface rust which can be polished off with #0000 steel wool moistened with WD40 (important).  It should restore the plating without additional polishing...  Just don't hit the paint with the steel wool.  Post some pics when you finish...

[OddBell]

One thing I noticed is the one on the museum website has a different start/stop mechanism. Mine matches the speed control and applies the break to the inside of the turntable, while theirs looks like it applies the break on the outside of the turntable and is a completely different design. Other than that it looks identical to mine. I wonder if it's a newer/older version or maybe they lost the original stop/start and had to replace it with a different one.

[CurtA]

No telling, since it is an unusual machine over 100 yrs old and any modifications might be that old too.  Before you start to disassemble anything, take pics at each step so you know how to put it back together.  The tonearm looks somewhat similar to other metal bodied machines and may need to be rotated until you find a slot that will allow it to be removed by lifting it up (just guessing).  

 

Before you take apart the reproducer - have you rebuilt one before?  Examine it to see if it's cast pot metal or pressed tin.  If it's pot metal, which a lot of them are, look at it closely to see if there is any sign of hairline cracks or crazing.  If so, taking it apart carries the risk of it crumbling and it would  be next to impossible to find a replacement or any spare parts.  Basically, this machine is a display piece, not a daily player and the sound will not be stellar even if rebuilt.  So, if there is pot metal deterioration, it might be best to leave it alone. 

 

If you intend to play 78s regularly, it would be best to find a more reliable machine to do so, for example a Victrola or an outside horn machine.  The lever wind mechanism may be reliable/robust, depending on how it's designed, but you won't know until you look inside. 

 

Good luck and if you run into any problems post pics...

[OddBell]

I made a video of cranking it a bit and running it. Let me know if anything pops out at you about it.

 

 

 

[CurtA]

Both of the brakes look typical for the period and the manufacturer probably just changed suppliers...  There was no standardization of parts, especially among less well known brands.

[CurtA]

After watching the video, it seems to run well.  It needs some lubrication, of course and there seems tome a knocking noise while running.  Maybe the governor is hitting something.

[OddBell]

It does sound like it's coming from that area. I bought replacement gaskets for the reproducer, is there any way of telling if it's pot metal or not?