The Bad Old Days

[phonogfp]

Yesterday, I was digging deep into a box of old material from the 1960s-70s.  There were old catalogs from Tom Pollard and Karl Frick, newsletters/magazines from the old California Antique Phonograph Collectors Society, and similar relics that many of us old timers have relegated to closets.  As I picked up a folder, a little booklet fell out, and I was face-to-face with the first "reference book" I ever bought on antique phonographs. 

 

To call this a "reference book" is a pretty far stretch, but in 1968, it was really all I had been able to locate.  I had never heard of From Tinfoil to Stereo, nor Roland Gelatt's The Fabulous Phonograph.   It would be 5 years before I discovered them.

 

This price guide was well-thumbed by Yours Truly in the late 1960s-early 1970s as I sought out antique phonographs in local shops.  As you'll see nearly all the "information" was inaccurate, but it gave me an inkling of what was out there...somewhere.  In either 1968 or 1969 I found the April 1963 issue of Hobbies magazine that had a cover photo of the machines at the Edison Winter Home in Ft. Myers, Florida.  A short article inside elaborated on the collection, no doubt making my adolescent jaw drop.  That's still around here somewhere, too.

 

So...for all you folks who complain that you can't find such-and-such online, here's a taste of what you'd have contended with as a teenager in the 1960s!

 

 

This is the First Editon, copyright 1968.  The picture of the Edison Standard on the cover is what drew my attention to it in Minckler's Drug Store 55 years ago.  I never noticed the ICS repeater until last night!

 

 

Who knew that Bettini (or "Bettinni") was one of the more popular company names?  Nearly every date is wrong, the Type B Graphophone is misidentified as a Q (and certainly wasn't "produced before Edison"), and the machine in #5 is a Model D Edison Standard...  You all can find more!

 

 

Most of the people who contributed input for this booklet were based in New York City, which may explain the rather high price estimates for the time.   The "expert" consulted for the sections on "Gramaphones, Phonographs, Music Boxes, etc." was a New York City man named Walter Engel. 

 

I enjoy strolling down Memory Lane as much as the next guy, but I wouldn't want to go back!

 

George P.

[melvind]

What a fun find. I started much later than you in this hobby. Lucky for me it was about the time you and Tim were starting your series of books. What a help that was to my knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby. I still use these books and the Nipper books by the Rolfs all the time. I feel lucky to have come into this hobby at a time when information and stories became accessible. I don't know if I would have ever enjoyed the hobby and gotten as out of control as I have without your books and all my phonograph crazy friends.

[phonogfp]

Well, thanks for your kind words, Dan.  Your sentiments remind me of an early maxim Tim and I embraced when we started that project: "Let's write the book we wish we had when we were starting out."  Obviously, we failed because it turned into 8 books...

 

When I find a subject that interests me, I love learning about it.  Acquiring that first thin blue Frow paperback on Edison cylinder Phonographs was a real thrill.  I just devoured it.  A few months later I bought my first copy of The Fabulous Phonograph and again ate heartily.  Then came my first copy of From Tinfoil to Stereo and...another bacchanalia (until a couple of years later when it began to come back up).  I have bought virtually every book on the history of sound recording and reproduction I could lay my hands on and it's still a thrill to learn new things.  It's a pleasure to hear that others enjoy the same thing.

 

Thanks again - -

[Valecnik]

Don't forget about the fun of buying things "online", I mean on telephone line.  Various publications such as "Jerry's Musical News" had classified sections.  Once a month everyone would quickly pereuse that section walking back from their mail box no doubt. There were no pictures, just text.  If you found something of interest, you would have to call the seller, 50, 60 cents or even a dollar per minute depending on time of day, get a description and ask for pictures.  One week or so later a letter would arrive in the mail after which a buying decision would have to be made based on a couple Polaroid photos looking like the one below.

[Valecnik]

12 hours ago, melvind said:

What a fun find. I started much later than you in this hobby. Lucky for me it was about the time you and Tim were starting your series of books. What a help that was to my knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby. I still use these books and the Nipper books by the Rolfs all the time. I feel lucky to have come into this hobby at a time when information and stories became accessible. I don't know if I would have ever enjoyed the hobby and gotten as out of control as I have without your books and all my phonograph crazy friends.

I guess I started earlier than you Dan!  By the time George and Tim's books started coming out, I had a pretty good awareness of the hobby first from that ~ 1970ish thin blue Frow paperback on Edison cylinder Phonographs, the Frow's Cylinder and Disc books and then Bob Baumbach's first Victor book.   Still I was among the pre-orderers or among the first in line at Union for George and Tim's books.  Every one of them is within arms reach of me as I'm typing and I have close to a duplicate set of them back in Minnesota too!  

[phonogfp]

Thanks, Bruce, for your very kind words about our books.

 

While reminiscing about the pre-internet days, let's not forget about placing ads in local newspapers and pennysavers!  I bought a few machines that way back in the 70s and 80s.  Of course, there were occasional pitfalls...like the guy who described his machine to me over the phone as being a Victor with a horn...  I asked if it was black.  "Yes!"  Did it have gold stripes along the edges?  "Yes!"  I drove to a neighboring town only to discover a battered Victrola X with its feet rotted off and no sound box.  I asked, "Where's the horn?"  The guy replied, "I thought it had a horn."  The internet didn't invent dopes.

 

On another occasion, a fellow called about a Graphophone he was offering.  Another drive to another neighboring town revealed a rough Eagle whose lid looked like it had been wet for a long time.  No reproducer or key, of course.  The guy didn't have a price in mind, so wanted me to make an offer.  Being only 19 years old, I fell for it and offered $50.  He said he'd think about it and would get back to me.  A day later he called and said that he'd had a slightly better offer, but I could have the Eagle for $55.  Even at 19, I was amused by this.  What was the "better offer?"  $52.50?  I bought it anyway - my first Eagle.

 

Gosh, I'd better stop before this turns into an autobiography.

 

George P.

[melvind]

This is a fun thread I think.  I started all this craziness in 1996 with my first Victrola XI. It mesmerized me and the music was fun. I was out looking for 78 records to play and ran into Stan Stanford at a local antique mall. I had been a student at Portland State University years earlier where Stan taught and we knew each other a bit. Stan talked about being a phonograph collector and invited me to his house to see his collection. I was shocked and amazed at the collection and he starting feeding me my first machines. He was a regular at local estate sales which still had phonographs and such at nearly every sale. He would give me good deals on machines he found that he didn't need to keep.

 

Then in 1998 I lived in Denmark for 6 months and had the chance to explore on the weekends. I had found a catalog for needle tins from England and I ordered some. And, I found more things in a small antique store in Copenhagen a few weeks later.

 

On my return I got involved in our local antique phonograph club (OTAPS) and met more people. I bought my first cylinder machine (a Fireside that I still have) from Jerry Blais. Then a trip to the Union Phonograph show and it was all over. I met Jerry Madsen and got on his mailing list which led to more things. Not long after that the catalogs and such went away. I bought a few things from the back of the "In The Groove" magazine including a very nice Victrloa XII in Seattle. I drove up there and back the same day to pick it up (about 7 hours of driving).

 

From there things exploded and I truly got a bit out of control and starting leaning more towards advertising while still collecting machines and records. I still would love to have catalogs or for sale print magazines to order from in many ways, but all is online these days. Perhaps I romanticize the past a bit when it took weeks to find a single small nipper statue or needle tin. Ebay changed everything. The antique stores started selling all their good stuff online and the brick and mortar stores have progressively gotten worse since then.  But, I still enjoy the hunt and find small things in person from time to time.

 

Now nearly everything I find comes from other collectors and the various shows that occur each year. Without those shows and collector friends my collecting would have likely stopped years ago. George's rediscovery of the phonograph price guide from the 1960s brought up many great memories of my short lived early days of my phonograph habit. I am grateful I had a small taste of what he described for 3 or 4 years as I started.

[Fran604g]

George, as you know I'm what many of you "old timers" might not so long ago called a "noob."

 

Thankfully I quickly outgrew any resemblance to the moniker in no small amount because the 1st thing I did was buy books. Yours and Tim's The Talking Machine - An Illustrated Compendium 1877-1929 gave me enough insight to avoid many mistakes when pursuing my earliest purchases. I still chuckle at the memory of me learning that Edison wasn't the only company that manufactured "cylinder machines", as I was completely unaware of the reality.

 

 

[Valecnik]

Fun thread indeed!

 

Let us not forget, (pun intended) scouring the local newspaper classified adverts for those three line ads which usually read something like, 

 

"Edison Victrola

Wind up with round discs included

Tel: 218 625 3434"

 

Then you have to call the number and get the potential seller to further describe it.  No pictures ever!

 

At least one time, I got lucky though.  While perusing the Sunday classifieds, I came across an advert saying something like, 

 

"Gortha Victrola, big

Crank up model, $350

Tel: 218 625 3434"

 

I called the number and the fellow kept describing it as "The Gortha".  I asked him where it said that.  He insisted the metal tag said GORTHA!  I asked him to spell for me what it said on the tag.  Becoming rather annoyed by now with all my questions he replied, "G. O. T. H. I. C" and then yelled into the phone, "Gortha!!!"  Of course I had to check it out.  When I got there I found it was this model. 🤣

 

(Photo from interet)

 

.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Valecnik
.

[CurtA]

I always wanted  a Gortha...

[Tinfoilphono]

I started out in this strangely addictive hobby in 1961, when I encountered a Victrola IX tabletop priced at $5 in a local antique shop. The bug had bit. I soon found a Columbia BQ and became enamored of cylinders. My third machine was a Columbia AB, which I still have today. 

 

The thrill of the hunt was very different then, without eBay and the internet. I bought whatever I could find, so I ended up with more of an accumulation than a collection. Lots of Edison Standards and Homes, so many Victrolas that I only took them when they were free, and I parted most of them out for lack of space.

 

I was fortunate to have supportive parents. I was also fortunate to get many machines for free, thanks first to a two-page spread in the Sunday 'Rotogravure' section, and later a 15 minute segment on a local TV show ("Western Massachusetts Highlights"). Since I was such a clean-cut kid, many people were happy to give me machines and records.

 

What I didn't have was information, or at least not a lot of it. My parents gave me a copy of "From Tinfoil to Stereo" for Christmas in 1962, a little less than 2 years since I started collecting. I was lucky to have a mentor, Neumann Miller of California. We corresponded by mail quite often, and I kept a neat stack of all his informative letters in a drawer. I wish I still had them. It was a pretty symbiotic relationship since I was in New England, where machines were relatively plentiful, and he was in Los Angeles, where they weren't. I sold and traded him a number of things. To his credit, he didn't take advantage of my youth or inexperience. 

 

I occasionally bought machines through newspaper ads, like the most expensive machine I ever bought in that first era of collecting -- an Edison Opera for $85 in 1966.

 

 

A couple of my better finds were at local auctions -- a Zonophone A ($25) and a Columbia BO with Herzog stand and 80 or so cylinders (a whopping $40 -- crazy money for the time).

 

Of course I was on every mailing list, and I still have a pile of old catalogs and mail auctions from the time. But I rarely bought from those, aside from needed parts. 

 

I had a fun ride through the 1960s but when I graduated from college in 1970, and decided to move to Colorado to embark on my adult life and career, I sold the majority of my collection. My parents' support was rewarded since I made good profits on everything. I kept about 8 machines -- whatever I could fit in a VW beetle -- and drove off. I didn't re-enter the hobby until the late 1970s, and only got 'serious' in the early 1990s. 

 

It's been a very fun ride.

[Valecnik]

29 minutes ago, Tinfoilphono said:

I started out in this strangely addictive hobby in 1961, when I encountered a Victrola IX tabletop priced at $5 in a local antique shop. The bug had bit. I soon found a Columbia BQ and became enamored of cylinders. My third machine was a Columbia AB, which I still have today. 

 

The thrill of the hunt was very different then, without eBay and the internet. I bought whatever I could find, so I ended up with more of an accumulation than a collection. Lots of Edison Standards and Homes, so many Victrolas that I only took them when they were free, and I parted most of them out for lack of space.

 

I was fortunate to have supportive parents. I was also fortunate to get many machines for free, thanks first to a two-page spread in the Sunday 'Rotogravure' section, and later a 15 minute segment on a local TV show ("Western Massachusetts Highlights"). Since I was such a clean-cut kid, many people were happy to give me machines and records.

 

What I didn't have was information, or at least not a lot of it. My parents gave me a copy of "From Tinfoil to Stereo" for Christmas in 1962, a little less than 2 years since I started collecting. I was lucky to have a mentor, Neumann Miller of California. We corresponded by mail quite often, and I kept a neat stack of all his informative letters in a drawer. I wish I still had them. It was a pretty symbiotic relationship since I was in New England, where machines were relatively plentiful, and he was in Los Angeles, where they weren't. I sold and traded him a number of things. To his credit, he didn't take advantage of my youth or inexperience. 

 

I occasionally bought machines through newspaper ads, like the most expensive machine I ever bought in that first era of collecting -- an Edison Opera for $85 in 1966.

 

 

A couple of my better finds were at local auctions -- a Zonophone A ($25) and a Columbia BO with Herzog stand and 80 or so cylinders (a whopping $40 -- crazy money for the time).

 

Of course I was on every mailing list, and I still have a pile of old catalogs and mail auctions from the time. But I rarely bought from those, aside from needed parts. 

 

I had a fun ride through the 1960s but when I graduated from college in 1970, and decided to move to Colorado to embark on my adult life and career, I sold the majority of my collection. My parents' support was rewarded since I made good profits on everything. I kept about 8 machines -- whatever I could fit in a VW beetle -- and drove off. I didn't re-enter the hobby until the late 1970s, and only got 'serious' in the early 1990s. 

 

It's been a very fun ride.

That Newspaper advert you show is a classic Rene.  At least it accurately describes the machine, unlike many of them.  I cannot count the number of trips I made to look at things that were totally misdescribed and complete junk.

 

[phonogfp]

Yes, the wasted trips numbered in the dozens over the years.  But every now and then we'd get lucky...

 

Here's the original ad that appeared in our local Pennysaver in March 1983:

 

 

I almost didn't go.  It was a workday, I didn't want to waste vacation time, and I was pretty sure that a "Gramaphone" wasn't involved.  I was picturing a rough Eagle (awful things) or a Q.  But in the end, that little voice that keeps telling us to "check it out - check it out!" wouldn't quit.

 

Here's my receipt from the morning of March 11, 1983:

 

 

Did I REALLY buy a birdcage for $4?  No, I bought what they thought was a "Birdcage Stand."  It went with this:

 

 

 

There was a 56-inch brass horn, a 14-inch brass horn, reproducer and recorder in original boxes, some original literature, and 14 five-inch cylinders in boxes with no lids. 

 

There were two other guys at that house sale ahead of me who were after the "Gramaphone."  They both had lower numbers on their cards than I had, and I nearly left when I saw them ahead of me in the line.  How I managed to leave the sale that day with this Graphophone outfit is a long story best left for another time.  But there was an epilogue:

 

A year later Barbie and I were driving near Hamburg (where the memorable house sale had been held), and we were passing a yard sale.  I spotted what appeared to be a cylinder record cabinet and pulled over.  Sure enough, it was the same cabinet shown in the Edison catalog of February 1899.  As we discussed price, the man (who didn't know the cabinet's original purpose) mentioned that the cabinet had come from his mother's house on Main Street.  Suddenly, I remembered all those five-inch records with no lids, and a couple of dots were begging to be connected.  I asked if there had been a house sale there the previous year, and he replied, "Yes - at 108 Main Street."  Apparently, the record cabinet had been upstairs, and in my excitement I never went up there.  So - against all odds - the entire outfit was kept together and remains so to this day!  (The record carrying case shown below was not part of the outfit.)  The original records in their boxes are in the cabinet where they have spent their entire lives except for one year...

 

 

[CurtA]

Great finds, George...

My best find came as a result of following up a comment on The Talking Machine Forum.  

 

Several years ago, someone posted that they had seen a cygnet horn in an antique shop in Harriman, TN for $150, but didn't buy it.  I needed one, so I sent a PM to ask what antique shop he saw it at.  The OP didn't know the shop name, so I GOOGLEd antique shops in the area.  A number of them showed up, so I called all of them until finding the one with the horn and asked them to ship it to me.  

 

As an afterthought, I asked the owner if he had anything else phono related.  He mentioned something that sounded like a crapophone, then said "I do have one at home that I don't want to sell and a guy from Texas has been pestering me to sell it to him."  I asked what it was and he didn't know, except it played tube records.  He said the guy had made a substantial offer, which he declined.  

 

I asked for pics, which he sent and re-iterated that it wasn't for sale.  I decided to follow back up with him a week or two later to see if he changed his mind.  He told me that someone lost control of their car and demolished the corner of his store, but his insurance wouldn't cover the total amount...  He indicated that he might consider selling his machine, so I added $1,000 to his previous offer and he accepted.  I got in my car and drove from Charlotte, NC to Harriman, TN which is past Knoxville - immediately - before he changed his mind.

 

What was the mystery machine?  An 1894 Columbia Type G Perfected Graphophone with a wooden mandrel that was in pristine condition and had been used by an early phonograph exhibitor.  It was a time capsule with a box of brown wax records, broadsides, admission tickets and a handwritten playlist of songs.  It also came with an unusual large black recording horn, which had two seams - one on each side.

 

This just proves that you never know what is waiting around the next corner...

[phonogfp]

No fair, Curt!  That happened on the Internet!

 

I remember the pictures you posted of that Type G - - absolutely beautiful.

[CurtA]

Unfortunately, I only owned it for three days until Mike Lund persuaded me to let him have it...  Fortunately, Mike has let me have visitation rights and it's only four miles away...

[Valecnik]

Great find George.  Especially getting the "bird cage" and later the cabinet too.  It's really great that you were able to keep it all together.

[phonogfp]

5 hours ago, Valecnik said:

Great find George.  Especially getting the "bird cage" and later the cabinet too.  It's really great that you were able to keep it all together.

 

Thanks Bruce.  ...And all before the internet!

 

I have no rational explanation, but I get a kick out of keeping as much of the original equipment together as possible.  I was fortunate enough several years ago to acquire a Type GG Graphophone with its 30-inch brass horn (kind of small for the machine!) and 19 five-inch cylinders.  One of the records is an announced home recording, and through it I was able to trace the identity and home of the original owners.  I wrote up the experience with pictures in the September 2017 issue of the APS magazine.

 

I realize that when my collection is dispersed, this stuff may well be scattered to the four corners, but for now it's all together.

 

Sorry - I've gone well off the topic of "The Bad Old Days!"

[Valecnik]

7 hours ago, phonogfp said:

 

Thanks Bruce.  ...And all before the internet!

 

I have no rational explanation, but I get a kick out of keeping as much of the original equipment together as possible.  I was fortunate enough several years ago to acquire a Type GG Graphophone with its 30-inch brass horn (kind of small for the machine!) and 19 five-inch cylinders.  One of the records is an announced home recording, and through it I was able to trace the identity and home of the original owners.  I wrote up the experience with pictures in the September 2017 issue of the APS magazine.

 

I realize that when my collection is dispersed, this stuff may well be scattered to the four corners, but for now it's all together.

 

Sorry - I've gone well off the topic of "The Bad Old Days!"

Not really off topic George.  Just another "The One That Didn't Get Away" story from the bad old days!🤣

[Valecnik]

 I think this is my last "Lucky find in the Bad Old Days" story unless something jogs my memory.

 

Several years ago a picker friend of mine found an Amberola III at an auction which he quickly resold by the time I visited him. Of course I was sad to hear I'd missed it but he offered me some of the records that came with it. When he came out with the "boxes of records", I realized they were the storage boxes that had come with the Amberola III. I bought both boxes including the the records. Unfortunately the third box he'd given to another customer who purchased several of the cylinders. So at this point I had two of the three boxes.

Fast forward two years or so and I saw an ad in the local Sunday paper, no internet then. It said something like "box of Edison records" $300. I called, drove over to have a look and sure enough it was the third box from the set. It's difficult to see but they are numbered in pencil, 1, 2, 3 just below where the boxes are stamped, "Records". I paid the $300 for the third box even though that was an outrageous sum for the time.  Most of the records have matching tops and are in exceptional condition.  I kept them in the three boxes they came in.  You can see them in the photo below under the Amberola IV.

 

 

 

 

[phonogfp]

Wow - you reunited a set of Edison cylinder albums?  That's truly incredible, considering their rarity.  Congratulations!

[CurtA]

RE: 108 Main St., Hamburg, NY

 

 

[phonogfp]

Yep - that's the place.  Here's what it looked like a week or two after the house sale in 1983.  I keep this picture in the record cabinet: