Help Identifying Possible HMV version of Victor VV-IX

[ntsc525]

Hi, everyone: This is my first post here since joining APS a few years ago.

 

I recently acquired what I thought was a HMV Gramophone based on the decal in the lid and the "His Master's Voice" stamped on the reproducer which turned out to be one of those cheap Chinese fakes (an old chrome one that was probably stuffed on this phono to replace whatever was supposed to be there so it could be sold).  I consider myself lucky the springs are good, so I still want to get this thing running and prettied up.

 

Anyway, the closest I can come to identifying it is, it looks a lot like a Victor VV-IX, except with a 10 inch platter instead of a 12 inch one.  This one has a motor that I can't identify, even though there are pictures of it in an old APS (CAPS, I believe) article here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160814122530/https://www.antiquephono.org/victorvictrola-motor-identification-repair-harold-braker/

(I had to go to the Wayback Machine to find the article.) My motor is Item 2 in the photo at the top and Figure 8, and wouldn't you know it, the author of that article didn't have any information on that motor either!

 

A very few pictures of the Victor VV-IX show the crank and speed control in the proper places to be my motor, but none show the inside of the units.  (The crank is towards the front, in a higher position than most, which are lower and more centered, and the speed adjustment is on the top (towards the back) right corner rather than the more common front right.  I'm guessing mine is an early version of the VV-IX, and I can tell you the tone arm has a single pin on the bottom rather than bearings, but it does have a metal horn leading into the bottom of the cabinet, suggesting from my reading that it's not the absolute earliest (1911) version.

 

The only thing that ties this phono to HMV is the "His Master's Voice" decal in the inside of the lid, but that is not consistent with pictures I've seen that have a different decal on the lower "flange" of the lid.  There is nothing on the motorboard or the motor itself showing it to be a Victor or HMV brand.  There is no sign that a Victor nameplate was ever on this machine, since pictures I've seen show the Victor nameplate to be on the right rear under the lid. Nothing under the platter, as I've seen on my only other HMV (101 portable).

 

Did Victor make the VV-IX for other manufacturers such as "The Gramophone House" in Glasgow?  Or is this an early example of an HMV line that sourced their parts from Victor?

 

OK, thanks for reading. I know you want pictures, so at long last, here they are! (I must apologize because my browser, picture editing software, file explorer and file open dialog can't agree on which side is up! So, some pictures will be incorrectly rotated. Yes, I know how to rotate them, but tall pictures always fall sideways on certain forums, I mean fora.)  Maybe the tall pics will stand up correctly in your browser!

 

Downward facing slats and piano hinges strongly suggest the Victor VV-IX. A very few on line photos show the crank in this position.

 

Not sure if this decal is fake, or old, or licensed by the company who sold it.  I doubt it's likely anyone would fake a VV-IX or HMV equivalent.

 

Appears to have been sold in Glasgow, and somehow ended up in Southern California!

 

Here's the motor. Double spring, with a geared winder, hence the crank position closer to the motorboard than others might be.

 

The governor, which is the main source of my problems. Like in The Raven, suddenly there was a tapping, as of someone gently rapping, rapping on my governor...

 

I don't like the way the speed adjustment bracket covers one of the motor mounting screws that pushes against it. I don't like how the pad arm knocks against the balls when the motor speeds up.

 

If I saw a properly working example of this motor I could probably figure out how to fix mine. Do I need to shift the position of the governor?  Are the balls too big? (Save your jokes, I've already thought of them.) Maybe someone has swapped out the governor from a different machine?

 

If I could identify the original model and age of this phono, I might have a chance at getting the correct sound box for it, though if I'm honest, it's easier for me to find a Victor one than an HMV one, so it might end up with an Exhibition 2.

 

Oh:

I almost forgot to include stickers I found on the bottom!  (I hear HMV used paper stickers that sometimes fell off, so I still think this could be an HMV.)

 

Does this look typical for HMV?

 

I have, or can take more pictures if anyone has any questions.

 

I'm fairly new to antique phonographs, and have many more tube radios than I have phonos. (Don't judge me for the radios, because SCARS (So Cal Antique Radio Society) is who introduced me to APS!)

 

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

 

Dan

[Sheraz]

Hi !  Your machine looks great. just try to Google the image of gramophone case and motor and you will find a clue about their origin. 

 

I have noted that similar models of HMV and other companies have minor variations with each production year/period. For example, HMV 101 and 102 registered various minor variations. So this gramophone may be a Victor production. 
 

The HMV logo has a very diverse history and it appears in different shades and hues. In 1899 The Gramophone Company purchased it, and by 1900 it was their corporate logo. Roughly eight years later they changed their name to HMV. The Victor Talking Machine Company saw the logo in 1902 or 03 and acquired the U.S. rights for themselves. ‘Being an American company, they used the logo a helluva lot more aggressively than their British counterparts, and when RCA acquired Victor in the 1920s it became their logo’. Therefore your machine may be one produced by Victor. However this seems to be more close to Victrola VV-VIII (see the picture attached here). 

You can always buy a genuine reproducer called a soundbox in UK from one of those gramophone shops being run by experts who also offer maintenance service. 

Try soaking the governor ends with DW 40. Please ensure that you not mess up with the governor when it is moving as you can easily break the spring leaf. One the governor picks up speed, the springs expand. If there is no cushion/pad at the end of your break it might be producing the noise on colliding with the governor’s disc next to the springs. 
 

Some time a loose or over tightened screw on the motorboard is the cause of rattling. Open the case and let the motor run, you might discover what is causing the noise. 
 

You can see a lot of videos on YouTube describing functioning of a motor. By watching these you can see how it works. 
 

Take care of your machine and enjoy it. Best of luck. 
Sheraz (Islamabad, Pakistan) 

[ntsc525]

Hi, Sheraz:

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I am actually in the USA, and actual Gramophone or HMV branded reproducers are difficult to find here. I did find a Victor #2 reproducer, which is similar to what I've found on Victors, though they are newer than mine, and have different louvers.

 

I don't remember exactly how I concluded mine was a VV-IX, but I see in "The Victor Data Book" that the VV-VIII looks similar, and the Type M of both (Earlier ones, from 1911 to 1913) has the louvers pointed down, and spaced closer together like mine. (It has more louvers than later models such as the one you show.)

 

I was fortunate enough to find that the person I bought my unbranded Talking Machine from had a Victor with the crank in the same place, and he graciously let me open it up and check out the motor, where I discovered a similar design of a single spring motor.

 

While I'm still curious as to the identify of my particular phono, and hope someone here can provide insight (such as whether Victor made machines for other entities besides HMV / Gramophone), they will chime in.

 

In the meantime, I believe my main problems with my motor are the fact that at least one screw is too long and pushes up on the speed adjustment bracket, and the screw that mounts the governor pad lever is incorrect.  Fortunately, the single spring version of my motor has an otherwise similar design, and I can see that the bracket, weights, etc., are apparently correct.

 

This motor was part of an actual Victor, but I didn't check my pictures before I left, so I don't have the model number! (It's a single spring version of my same early motor.)

Note the screw head on the regulator pad bracket compared to the big ol' square head on mine, which knocks on the governor weights.

 

Hopefully my pictures help someone else looking at or researching these early motors. If anyone finds a Victrola with narrower slats angled down instead of up, and the crank is towards the front of the machine, and the speed adjustment is in the rear right corner, chances are it's an early one with a similar motor. I think photos should be taken and posted here, since it seems so little is known about these motors.

 

I haven't had a chance to work on mine now that I know it's mostly correct, except for a couple of screws, and I now have a #2 reproducer I can rebuild for it, even if it may not be exactly correct for whatever brand this was. (Maybe it was "Gramophone" brand?)

 

I was so glad he let me take his Victrola apart, I didn't even take pictures of the whole phono.  Hopefully they'll have it at the next swap meet I attend!  How lucky to find another of the same age and similar motor type!

 

Dan

 

 

[Sheraz]

Hi

here you can read about the two machines in detail and find out which of the two deals with the one you have: 

http://www.victor-victrola.com/VIII.htm

 

http://www.victor-victrola.com/IX.htm

I am very sure yours fall in one of the two types. 

John Sleep mjpsleep@btinternet.com in UK or J. Notenboom in Holland are the best source for the soundbox. 

 

Once you have identified the source of problem, you can fix it but be careful in handling the governor. Never try to touch it or bring a screw driver close to it when it is in motion . 
 

best regards 

sheraz

[Sheraz]

Dan ! I just want to add that the head of screw on the brake pad is too close to the spring leaf on the governor. The spring when expands may hit the screw head. It is advisable that you change it on priority. 
cheers 

[ntsc525]

Hi, everyone. It's been a while, and my "HMV" Gramophone is still sitting in the garage waiting for its turn on the bench.

 

Thanks to everyone for their help. Mine is kind of a rough cabinet, but seems restorable to working condition even if my woodworking skills leave something to be desired.  I will find a low profile, correct screw for the governor, figure out the motorboard bolt and washer situation, and I have since acquired enough parts to hopefully make an HMV version of the Exhibition reproducer, which should be period correct for this unit.

 

I will revisit this thread when I start to make progress on this machine, but it may be a while, and I may have to "necro post" this thread.

 

Thanks again, and I'll post an update when I have it working!

 

Dan