Sonora Identification and Repair (Beginner)

[samnicho5]

I apologize if this is a longer post, I'm completely new to this and am looking for as much advice as possible. 
I recently purchased a Sonora cabinet phonograph at a thrift store. I believe I have identified it to be this style but have attached some photos below. I am unsure what type of wood it is or even if I have the correct style.  Before being donated to the thrift store,  I was told it used to belong to a church where it was eventually used as a display model where they siliconed/JB welded the needle and sound reproducer (head?) to the cabinet (photos are below). The reproducer is no longer glued however the needle and glue remain in the hole. Ideally, I would like to remove this. I believe the reproducer  is broken and was wondering where I should start on fixing this machine/restoring it. Currently, the table spins and stops accordingly, it just does not have a reproducer (though I have extra needles). The filigree that is broken off in the front is all in hand in the cabinet and I believe I can restore or replace this as well using the woodshop I have access to. The key to the cabinet is also missing however it is unlocked.

For context, I am a junior in university studying Mechanical engineering who has repaired instruments and such before however has never owned a phonograph.  I have no desire to restore this to sell or anything. I would just love to own a somewhat restored/working phonograph and absolutely couldn't leave this at the thrift store. Any advice is appreciated. 

[PatheLogical]

What a great machine to start out with! Your model is most definitely a Sonora Baby Grand. The pic below is taken from a Sonora catalog which is dated 1920. I hope this helps you in your quest for information about your project!

Edited January 26, 2022 by PatheLogical
forgot to attach picture.

[phonogfp]

Yes, definitely a Baby Grand.  Sonoras are fine phonographs which present few problems to present-day restorers.  Attached below is one of the several free articles on the APS website which you may find helpful:

 

https://www.antiquephono.org/basic-antique-phonograph-operational-tips/

 

The crumbling area within a nickel-plated metal ring behind the turntable was once a supple rubber pad designed to gently cradle the needle bar of the sound box (also called a reproducer) when not in use.  Evidently your Sonora spent some time in a dry environment which turned the rubber into a brittle, broken mass.  I just checked my bone-yard where a couple of Sonora motors are squirrel away.  Unfortunately, the pads on these are either missing or in no better condition than yours.  You can replace the degraded rubber with any appropriate substitute if rubber is not available.  I'm envisioning a small globular wad of material covered with a layer of black fabric.

 

It's difficult to see in your pictures, but if your sound box has suffered major damage, you may want to send to a specialist for restoration.  At the very least it will need new gaskets, and possibly a new mica diaphragm.  There are a number of people who can do this for you, but Wyatt Markus makes a specialty of these repairs, does excellent work, and does so quickly.  He can be reached at:  restorationarts@gmail.com.  If you'd like other recommendations, we can provide you with more.

 

Don't be afraid to ask more questions, and best of luck with your Baby Grand - -

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

21 minutes ago, phonogfp said:

You can replace the degraded rubber with any appropriate substitute if rubber is not available.  I'm envisioning a small globular wad of material covered with a layer of black fabric.

I spend way too much of my time overanalyzing things to fix (hence why I couldn't leave the Sonora at the thrift store). I was leaning towards 3D modeling and printing one out of a rubber like TPU material as I've seen a couple of reference images online now and feel like it would be pretty easy to replicate. Do you think that would be more 'original looking'? I'd like to keep as much of it as original as possible (hence why I'm meeting with some woodworking experts at my university to help me fix the front panel properly). 

The more time I spend fiddling with it, the more I'm learning and the less worried I am. Personally, I don't think the sound box has undergone super major damages and have already started an order for a mica diaphragm and gasket material. The reason it is disconnected from the arm in the photos is because I manually unscrewed it so I could move the tone arm out of the way while gently chipping it away from the glue and rubber mess left by the previous owners. 

Additionally, by reading above and an old manual I found online, it appears there is a hole in the side of the cabinet where my tone modifier lever should be. Currently the table spins and I would like to fix the tone modifier however I'm worried about opening the top of the machine and somehow causing more damage as I can't find many internal images of what exactly I should likely be pulling off in what order etc. Do you know of any repair shops that sell the lever or would I have to likely try to reproduce it myself?

Finally, can anyone more experienced take a guess at what kind of wood my Baby Grand is? I'd love to clean her and likely polish (I'd like to keep the original varnish as much as possible I think) however she's super dusty and I want to make sure I use the right products. 

[phonogfp]

You're on the right track in not being worried about restoring your Sonora.  There's nothing there that cannot be repaired or replaced.  In addition, your resolve to maintain as much originality as possible is commendable. 

 

Your Baby Grand is mahogany.  Simple steps toward cleaning it can be found in the article I suggested above.

 

Removing the motor board is easy and absolutely necessary to lubricate the motor.  Simply remove the crank and turntable (it pulls straight up with no tools necessary).  Now you will see several screws along the perimeter of the playing area.  Remove them, and the motor board (with the motor attached) can be carefully lifted up and removed from the cabinet.  flip the motor board/motor over and place on a secure surface (I like to use an old folded towel).  To do a really thorough job, you may want to completely disassemble the motor, clean it, and lubricate it.  However, Sonoras have a virtually airtight motor compartment, and it's unusual (at least in my experience) to find a Sonora motor that is exceptionally dirty.  Old, dried-up lubrication should be cleaned off, of course, but a complete tear-down may not be necessary.  On the other hand, many of us find such a process to be rewarding and educational.  If you're at all mechanically inclined, it's a straightforward process.  Some tip in this process can be found in the article I suggested above.

 

Your tone modifier doesn't work with a lever, but rather a simple rod that is threaded on each end.  It may be that all you're missing is the little knob that screws onto the outer end.  Whether you need the complete rod and knob, or just the knob, George Vollema can probably help:  https://www.victroladoctor.com/

 

The grille of your Sonora appears to have sustained the worst damage.  If the woodworkers at your university cannot help, Tom Rutkowski may be able to make a new grille for you:  https://www.grampstreasures.com/

 

Finally, it just occurred to me that there's a Sonora Elite under a sheet downstairs.  I took a picture of its sound box cushion, although it's felt.  Should the rubber replacement prove too difficult, this is an original solution that was sometimes supplied by Sonora - at least on the higher-end models.  A picture is below.

 

 

Best of luck in your restoration!

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Thank you! This was extremely helpful.  Can I remove the tone arm before removing the motor board? Also, if the motor housing isn't extremely dirty, would it be better to likely leave it alone since its currently working? Thank you so much for the links, I'll contact them when I get to that step in the process. I like the look of the felt solution as well. I'll wait until I get my turntable felt in so I can try to match it if I go that route. 

[phonogfp]

You're very welcome.

 

You certainly can remove the tone arm prior to removing the motor board, but it's not necessary.  If you go that route, be sure to disconnect the automatic brake before tackling the tone arm.

 

I must admit that there are numerous motors in my collection that have not been completely disassembled.  It all depends upon the motor's condition.  Some talking machine have no cabinets, so their motors are completely exposed.  There's not a single example of that type motor in my collection that hasn't been disassembled down to the last screw, cleaned, and lubricated.   When there's dirt in the teeth of the gears, it needs cleaning.

 

That said, I've never encountered an unrestored motor that didn't need at least a proper lubrication.

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Sounds great! Today I tried to remove almost all the old glue off the table. That was terrible. Someone had used CA glue on it I believe to try to keep the felt down. With some elbow grease, I've gotten a lot off, the table is smooth and I can see most of the original plating. I'm not sure I can remove anymore without having to replate the table. Additionally, would there be any way to clean this tag? Tried my nail to see if it was just surface, also tried a lightly damp cloth, any suggestions? Some of it looks more surface pitting/rust possibly but I'm holding out hope it's just dirt. 

[phonogfp]

I fear the data plate is losing its plating.  I hope I'm wrong, but the application of a non-pumiced hand cleaner such as GoJo, Goop, or Purple Power will safely remove any grime.  At that point you'll know what you're dealing with.

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Oh no! I hope not. Goop is ordered and now on the way! Is there anything I can do (other than possibly getting it replated) to stop that from happening?

[phonogfp]

You can't undo the damage, but you can stop further degradation by simply spritzing a little WD-40 on it.  All you need is a thin film of it.  You could even spray a bit on your finger and lightly rub it over the surface.  You may be surprised if the dark stuff dissolves!  Let's hope so, but even in a worst-case scenario, a data plate isn't worth losing sleep over.  The grille is a bigger problem.

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

True. I plan on tackling a plan on how I should approach the grille today and possibly taking a look at the motor board. I'll hold out hope for the plate. 

[samnicho5]

On 1/26/2022 at 8:55 AM, phonogfp said:

Your Baby Grand is mahogany.  

 

Simply remove the crank and turntable (it pulls straight up with no tools necessary). 

Two questions. First, I'm starting to question if it's mahogany. It seems too light both in color and in weight. Secondly. How on earth do I remove the crank? I've undone the screws holding it on the sides but that's all that I can find for the crank itself.  Edited to update to say I'm an idiot. It screwed off backwards. Okay, now that I've got it off, what is a good way to recognize good oil/dirt vs bad? Also. The tone modifying rod is missing all together I believe. 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by samnicho5
My previous statement was incorrect and included images of motor board.

[phonogfp]

Your motor looks relatively clean.  If it were mine, and unless I was in the mood for a takedown, I'd apply grease to the larger gears and the worm, 30 wt. oil to the mid-size gears, and sewing machine oil to the small gears and governor.  Don't forget the governor pads.  Also - every bearing needs a drop of sewing machine oil.

 

The first few times you wind up the motor, you may hear thumping as the mainsprings tighten, and you may hear "chugging" as they slowly relax during play.  It's the result of the mainspring grease drying out and hardening with age.  This may go away with use, but if not let us know and we'll offer suggestions.

 

Don't forget to check this out if you haven't already:

 

https://www.antiquephono.org/basic-antique-phonograph-operational-tips/

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Do these look correct/alright to use? Additionally, Does that governor pad look like felt? Should I be replacing that?

[phonogfp]

Those look like fine products.  For light sewing machine oil, I'm partial to Tri-Flow.  Lubit-8 is also highly recommended.

 

The governor pads are indeed felt, and they still look healthy.  They probably require only lubrication with the light oil.

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Perfect! Thank you! I'll pick up one of those. Yeah I was hoping to not replace the governor pads as to me they looked okay and not super falling apart. 

[samnicho5]

Its alive!! (I had a hard time uploading a longer snippet) 

 

 

[phonogfp]

Isn't that something?

 

It sounds pretty good too!

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Yeah I’m stoked! The only thing I’ve noticed is A: I feel like I’m bad at putting the needle down and B by the time the record is done there’s a small bit of white dirt at the end of the needle. Now I know the needle can only be used once but is that just dirt or am I destroying the record? 

[phonogfp]

If the record is dirty, the needle will plow up some of it.  Dirty records should be cleaned before playing.

 

As for lowering the needle, it seems a bit awkward at first but you'll soon be able to do it with your eyes shut!

 

George P.

[samnicho5]

Thanks! I’m way too excited. I made the mistake of only ordering 100 needles. Time to hit Etsy again! 

[CurtA]

You have a great machine, as George said.  Sonora is one of the best made phonographs (in  my opinion) as the parts are quality made and the cabinets are exceptional.  Do you by any chance have the broken parts of the grill?  If not, the Baby Grand is possible to find an original grill for.  George Vollema may have one, as he is in Michigan and Sonoras were made in Saginaw Michigan.   You could replicate the missing portion by copying the good side and reversing the pattern, then cutting it on a scroll saw.  If you use thin plywood and then veneer it, you might get a good match, but an original would be the best option because your machine is in good condition.

 

As far as cleaning your records, I use a method that some might find to be unusual.  I spray a small squirt of Wd-40 on two places and then wipe it with a clean cloth in a circular motion following the grooves.  Then wipe it all off with a dry cloth and play it through with a new steel needle.  I have done this for over 40 years with absolutely no damage or negative results to my records and WD-40 is NOT a shellac solvent contrary to some belief.  Try it on a worn record, as a test, and see if it doesn't clean the record and restore its appearance.

[CurtA]

I also noticed that the lid prop seems to be missing and hopefully you have it.  It is different from other phonographs since it is made of wood.  If yours is missing maybe George Vollema or someone on the Forum may have one.

[CurtA]

I re-read your initial post and it seems that you might have the broken grill parts.  I repaired a similarly damaged grill like this:

 

I obtained a heavy green file folder (the green ones are stronger than the buff colored ones) made of extra heavy card stock.  Being flexible, it was easy to bend to form the original curve of the grill.  I cut a piece larger than the broken out opening and glued it from the back to the remaining grill using Gorilla wood glue.  Then I carefully matched and glued the broken pieces in place, like a puzzle, to the file folder and to themselves.  Once they were glued into place, I cut the openings out with an X-acto knife.  Once the grill pieces dried in place, I coated the back side of the cardboard with the wood glue for added strength.  Any small gaps or small missing areas on the front were filled with stainable wood filler and stained to match.  This worked extremely well for me and since your grill is broken, it is no big risk to try this method if you are up to the challenge...

 

Good luck with your restoration and ask any questions you can think of.