Advice on Sonora Barcarolle Gramophone

[bloss1990]

Hello everyone! I have a Sonora Barcarolle gramophone and am looking to get some advice on it. It was recently serviced (we only got it back a few days ago) and should be running fine. However, I'm having trouble working out how many times to turn the crank. I don't want to over wind it so have been stopping as soon as I feel any increase in resistance, but it seems to not be creating sufficient power to play any of our records. How many times should I be turning the crank on this model? I've read conflicting advice ranging from 15 turns to 35-40 turns. Thank you! 

[Jerry]

A common issue for new owners. If everything is in good condition, you can't really "overwind" it. Aside from intentional abuse, there is no such thing as "overwinding." You'll feel a sudden increase in winding tension when fully wound. Stop winding when you feel that.  Abuse only occurs if you force it past being fully wound. All that being said, I almost never fully wind. These things are old, why stress them to the max?

 

So, how far do you wind? There is no correct number of turns. Every machine is different. You already know you're not winding enough. Move on from there, increasing your winding until you can play a record all the way through. The next record may need just a few additional turns to get it through the tune. Again, experiment a bit. You'll soon get the feel for it. Without feeling resistance when you wind, you're not winding enough. It takes energy to play a record. If you're not inputting energy/effort, the machine won't have the oomph to play a record.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 01:57 PM by Jerry

[bloss1990]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

A common issue for new owners. If everything is in good condition, you can't really "overwind" it. Aside from intentional abuse, there is no such thing as "overwinding." You'll feel a sudden increase in winding tension when fully wound. Stop winding when you feel that.  Abuse only occurs if you force it past being fully wound. All that being said, I almost never fully wind. These things are old, why stress them to the max?

 

So, how far do you wind? There is no correct number of turns. Every machine is different. You already know you're not winding enough. Move on from there, increasing your winding until you can play a record all the way through. The next record may need just a few additional turns to get it through the tune. Again, experiment a bit. You'll soon get the feel for it. Without feeling resistance when you wind, you're not winding enough. It takes energy to play a record. If you're not inputting energy/effort, the machine won't have the oomph to play a record.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much! When it got serviced we were told to be very careful with winding it up to not over do it as it will break the mainspring (we were told it was in very bad shape from that when we brought it in, but we can't be sure if that was us or the previous owners) so it's just made me very wary about how much we are winding it up. It took about 40 turns to get to the point of noticeable resistance before we got it serviced, but I think that may have been too much given what the guy said after the service. I will try winding it up more incrementally until it plays through a whole record without slowing. Hopefully that will avoid putting too much pressure on the mainspring/over winding it 😊 

[Jerry]

Honestly, if it was properly serviced, "very bad shape" springs should have been replaced. Hopefully, some of the spring troubles were addressed. (Springs can often be repaired)

 

So, wind it as much as needed to play a record and take it easy. (BTW, it's okay to wind it while it's playing if it begins to slow down. Some folks don't realize that.)

[phonogfp]

3 hours ago, Jerry said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Jerry said:

Honestly, if it was properly serviced, "very bad shape" springs should have been replaced.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  Who services a motor and leaves the mainsprings in "very bad shape?"

 

George P.

[bloss1990]

8 hours ago, phonogfp said:

 

 

I was thinking the same thing.  Who services a motor and leaves the mainsprings in "very bad shape?"

 

George P.

Oh no the mainspring was replaced, I meant that I was worried we might have over wound the original spring and that's why it was in such bad shape, so we don't want to risk doing that again to the new one. Sorry for any confusion in my writing! 

[phonogfp]

Don't overthink the "how much to wind" question.  In 59 years of collecting and having owned about 200 machines, I can count my mainspring breaks on one hand.  (I've replaced several dozen mainsprings that were broken when I bought the machines!)  As long as you don't force the crank once the mainspring is fully wound, you'll be fine.

 

For a 2-mainspring Barcarolle, I'd bet that it will require 50-60 crank revolutions to become fully wound.

 

George P.

[bloss1990]

11 hours ago, Jerry said:

Honestly, if it was properly serviced, "very bad shape" springs should have been replaced. Hopefully, some of the spring troubles were addressed. (Springs can often be repaired)

 

So, wind it as much as needed to play a record and take it easy. (BTW, it's okay to wind it while it's playing if it begins to slow down. Some folks don't realize that.)

The mainspring was replaced, I am just worried about damaging the new one as we were told to be very careful with it (he said a lot of people overwind them and that's what causes the issues with the mainsprings). Sorry my wording was a little confusing! He fixed up absolutely everything on it and it was playing beautifully when we picked it up, so I think it's just us not winding it up enough. We're going to get it checked over again just to make sure there aren't any issues and he is going to show us how much we should be winding it up whilst we are there so that will be a big help to ensure we don't overwind it 😊 Thanks for all the advice!

[bloss1990]

1 minute ago, phonogfp said:

Don't overthink the "how much to wind" question.  In 59 years of collecting and having owned about 200 machines, I can count my mainspring breaks on one hand.  (I've replaced several dozen mainsprings that were broken when I bought the machines!)  As long as you don't force the crank once the mainspring is fully wound, you'll be fine.

 

For a 2-mainspring Barcarolle, I'd bet that it will require 50-60 crank revolutions to become fully wound.

 

George P.

Thank you so much! We are new to owning a gramophone and it's very dear to us so we've been really worried about damaging it (there's such conflicting information online about how fragile/durable they are!). It's great to know they're actually a lot more sturdy than we thought! And that it would likely require so many turns as I was worried maybe the one time I did get it to play that I'd overwound it already. The only other manual wind up item that I own is my 1950s watch, and that's quite easy to know if it's fully wound as it's suddenly very hard to wind up any further, but this seems to be a lot more gradual so it's been harder to get a feel for it. The guy who serviced it is going to show us how much to wind it up and just check that everything is running smoothly still (based on what you've said, I imagine we're just not winding it enough but I also have a few other questions for him whilst we're there anyway 😊). I appreciate the advice! 

[Tinfoilphono]

I'm a retired watchmaker so I have talked with hundreds of customers who thought they damaged their watch by overwinding, or feared doing it. In my entire career I never once saw a watch that was actually overwound. It is frankly hard to do, because it requires so much force beyond the point where the watch (or the phonograph!) is obviously not going to go any further. Since they are both spring-driven machines it's quite easy to feel the point where the resistance of the spring is at its max. I think it's even easier with a phonograph than a watch, simply due to the size and strength of the spring(s).

 

And just as you are experiencing with your Sonora, I've talked to endless watch owners who question why their watch stops after only a few hours even after servicing. In every one of those cases it was because the owner feared damaging it, and only wound the spring a few turns, not the 25-40 required (watches and phonographs can vary in the total). Of course a watch or a phonograph that has not been serviced is a different story, since there are so many factors that come into play in these mechanical marvels. 

 

So I will only echo what others have said -- if it was serviced and the springs replaced, you don't need to baby it. These machines were used very heavily when new, and they're still capable of working just as well today. 

 

Enjoy!

[Jerry]

Bloss,

 

To add to all of this, I believe that this model uses a Swiss made motor. I serviced one of those motors a couple years ago. It was one of the highest quality and easy to service motor that I've seen. You really can't break this unless you really want to, and even then, you'd really have to work at it. Just enjoy it. Welcome to the hobby!!

 

Rene,

 

I appreciate reading of your experience with both watches & phonographs related to "over winding." It supports my long held belief that no such thing really exists, (again, unless doing damage is one's goal.)

[bloss1990]

4 hours ago, Tinfoilphono said:

I'm a retired watchmaker so I have talked with hundreds of customers who thought they damaged their watch by overwinding, or feared doing it. In my entire career I never once saw a watch that was actually overwound. It is frankly hard to do, because it requires so much force beyond the point where the watch (or the phonograph!) is obviously not going to go any further. Since they are both spring-driven machines it's quite easy to feel the point where the resistance of the spring is at its max. I think it's even easier with a phonograph than a watch, simply due to the size and strength of the spring(s).

 

And just as you are experiencing with your Sonora, I've talked to endless watch owners who question why their watch stops after only a few hours even after servicing. In every one of those cases it was because the owner feared damaging it, and only wound the spring a few turns, not the 25-40 required (watches and phonographs can vary in the total). Of course a watch or a phonograph that has not been serviced is a different story, since there are so many factors that come into play in these mechanical marvels. 

 

So I will only echo what others have said -- if it was serviced and the springs replaced, you don't need to baby it. These machines were used very heavily when new, and they're still capable of working just as well today. 

 

Enjoy!

Thank you so much! This is very helpful to know and makes me feel a lot less worried 😄

[bloss1990]

4 hours ago, Jerry said:

Bloss,

 

To add to all of this, I believe that this model uses a Swiss made motor. I serviced one of those motors a couple years ago. It was one of the highest quality and easy to service motor that I've seen. You really can't break this unless you really want to, and even then, you'd really have to work at it. Just enjoy it. Welcome to the hobby!!

 

Rene,

 

I appreciate reading of your experience with both watches & phonographs related to "over winding." It supports my long held belief that no such thing really exists, (again, unless doing damage is one's goal.)

That's fantastic! Thanks again for all your help and advice. This gramophone has definitely sparked my interest in phonographs so I appreciate any information/advice on them, especially since I'm sure this won't be my only one 😄