Once again; Standard Talking Machine Co. 7" disc records question...

[Fran604g]

Hiya gang!

 

Sorry for my spotty-at-best participation here but, it's been crazy busy at Casa FranandSharon since March.

 

I'm wondering if these 2 Standard TMco. 7" records are typical in that they're just a bit different from other examples I've seen - although that isn't saying much. I recently acquired 2 off eBay; No. 1897 (Band) Noisy Bill 

and No.261 (Baritone and Tenor Duet) While the Leaves Came drifting Down. 

 

 

A couple of the things I noticed about these 2 records is the not only do the holes appear to have been hastily drilled out (not uncommon). Both have the ubiquitous patent sticker on the blank side. However, oddly to me the center of both records have a significant depression in their centers that measure 2-5/16 inches in diameter. I thought this also was interesting: No. 1897 has a quite apparent 1/4 inch diameter raised "boss" on the blank side which is reminiscent of the dimples found with other records, except in the reverse.

 

Are these features common?

 

I did a search through available documentation I have here and the innernut for the usual info and - typical of STMCo. - little was found. Tim and George provided the most info about the likely producer of records for the company, with a nice oversight of other Chicago "scheme goods" companies in The Talking Machine - An Illustrated Compendium 1877-1929 pp.132-133. Thanks to them both for still providing fantastic and readily available references. Anyone who doesn't yet own any of their books should grab as many of them as they can afford!

[phonogfp]

Fran, post pictures of the matrix numbers on both records.

 

George P.

[Fran604g]

George,

 

261-1E

 

1897-2(?) If I had to guess I'd say A?

[phonogfp]

Those look like Columbia matrix numbers to me, but I expect someone with the Brooks discography will chime in.

 

George P.

[Fran604g]

Thanks, George.

 

I think they're a bit odd. I did some looking around on the DAHR site and it seems that #261 is pretty early. The center relief on both makes me wonder if it was removed after it was produced to remove some other identification.

[Fran604g]

Here's a better shot of the center depression I mentioned.

[RodPickett]

Related to this topic, although not an answer to your specific query, there are a number of Discographies available in the APS Member Content Library.

 

They can be found using:

 

MEMBER RESOURCES / LIBRARY SEARCH with a search-argument of DISCO

 

 

or

 

MEMBER RESOURCES / LIBRARY CATALOG and click the Record Catalogs Discographies button.

[Fran604g]

3 minutes ago, RodPickett said:

Related to this topic, although not an answer to your specific query, there are a number of Discographies available in the APS Member Content Library.

 

They can be found using:

 

MEMBER RESOURCES / LIBRARY SEARCH with a search-argument of DISCO

I was just headed over there, thanks Rod. Great minds and all...

[Fran604g]

Another note of possible interest to those of us tenacious-types, is the location and fit of the "dimple" on the blank side of my Zon-O-Phone 7" "arch-design" record #9383 precisely corresponds and fits to the location of the small "boss" on record #1897, but does not fit the dimples on my "shield-design" labeled records. Curious, eh? I wonder what might explain this?

 

 

 

Also, if it's of any interest, I weighed my 2 STMCo. records in case there's any relevance to the differences.

 

 

😁

Edited July 26 by Fran604g

[NateO]

I'm late to the party, but these definitely are some interesting discs! I don't recall seeing any other Columbia products with that center depression in the label area. There's no doubt they're Columbia recordings, but I can't imagine what they would have been trying to efface from the surface. 

 

Is it possible Columbia contracted out these pressings to a different company? I'm not familiar enough with "off brand" pressings of this era to know if the sunken center might be indicative of a certain companies pressings. 

 

 

[Fran604g]

On 8/3/2024 at 3:35 PM, NateO said:

I'm late to the party, but these definitely are some interesting discs! I don't recall seeing any other Columbia products with that center depression in the label area. There's no doubt they're Columbia recordings, but I can't imagine what they would have been trying to efface from the surface. 

 

Is it possible Columbia contracted out these pressings to a different company? I'm not familiar enough with "off brand" pressings of this era to know if the sunken center might be indicative of a certain companies pressings. 

 

 

I'm curious if there is any connection to the Globe/Climax/Zon-O-Phone years. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the Brooks' works and although the DAHR site has the text of Columbia Master Book, Volume I explaining this era, there are no images attached. I'd love to see some of those early embossed labels.

https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/resources/detail/132

Edited August 5 by Fran604g
Spelling

[Fran604g]

Columbia 261 (Standard and Climax 261) is reported by Brooks as having been released in 1901 https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/objects/detail/201037/Columbia_261

Edited August 5 by Fran604g

[Fran604g]

Another interesting bit of info related to no. 261 per Brooks/Rust

Oxford and Harvard are listed with multiple different performers. I think I need to determine which performer(s) were employed on my example. @NateO @phonogfp your impeccable ears would be much better than mine.😀

https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/detail/2000135701/261-While_the_leaves_came_drifting_down

[PatheLogical]

4 hours ago, Fran604g said:

I'm curious if there is any connection to the Globe/Climax/Zon-O-Phone years. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the Brooks' works and although the DAHR site has the text of Columbia Master Book, Volume I explaining this era, there are no images attached. I'd love to see some of those early embossed labels.

https://adp.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/resources/detail/132

Fran, here's a pic of three, 7", embossed-label Climax Records in my collection. When I saw your original post, I thought perhaps the embossed/raised lettering had been effaced from centers of the stampers/molds used to press the original embossed Climax Records in order to make paper-labeled Columbia or Standard records later on. However, your Standard No. 1897 would far exceed the currently known catalog number range (which I believe is in the 300s) of embossed Climaxes. Note, paper labels were placed directly over the raised lettering of later embossed-label Climax Records for a short period of time (see pic of No. 286). So why would lettering have been effaced, when simply applying labels over the raised lettering had been done previously? An interesting couple of discs you have!

 

Edited August 5 by PatheLogical

[Fran604g]

6 minutes ago, PatheLogical said:

Fran, here's a pic of three, 7", embossed-label Climax Records in my collection. When I saw your original post, I thought perhaps the embossed/raised lettering had been effaced from centers of the stampers/molds used to press the original embossed Climax Records in order to make paper-labeled Columbia or Standard records later on. However, your Standard No. 1897 would far exceed the currently known catalog number range (which I believe is in the 300s) of embossed Climaxes. An interesting couple of discs you have!

No. 1897 does make some of my supposition incredulous. I'm having trouble understanding how the 2 records can be so similar but, seemingly years apart in production.

[phonogfp]

Bob, I had wondered the same thing regarding a possible Climax influence, but the catalog numbers and size of the depressions changed my mind.

 

George P.

[Fran604g]

Could someone please post some images of early Columbia 7" pressings? I have none and don't recall what the labeling is, if indeed I've ever even examined any myself.

[NateO]

17 hours ago, Fran604g said:

Could someone please post some images of early Columbia 7" pressings? I have none and don't recall what the labeling is, if indeed I've ever even examined any myself.

I don't own too many Columbia discs, but here's the bulk of them, showing the different label styles (and reverses as well).

 

The two Climax records are marked "Pat. App'd For" in a small arch on the reverse. I'd also note that the Climax discs (and the two Columbias with the solid silver ringed borders as well as number 855) have the matrix information incised into the disc, instead of the more common raised matrix information used later on. That's what leads me to believe both your Standard pressings are more "modern". 

 

With your copy of 261, I'd definitely be curious to give it a listen. I'd bet money it's the later Harlan and Stanley recording. Dudley and Macdonough (and the Haydn Quartet, of which they were half) became exclusive to Victor and Edison quite early on, and their Columbia records seem to have been phased out fairly quickly. My Climax records feature the Haydn Quartet and Dudley and Macdonough, so I'd expect 261 to have incised matrix information as well, if it was their recording.

 

Edit: Fran, have you ever checked out i78s.org? You have to create a free account, but it contains a huge library of digitized early discs, including your Standard. Well worth checking out if you haven't seen it before!

Edited August 7 by NateO

[Fran604g]

Thanks, Nate!

 

Just to clarify, the matrix nos. are both incised, not raised. I see your Climax records have the round "dimple" typical of Zon-O-Phone records. Strange that my no.1897 has the reverse of that, as if the bottom mold used was a "positive" rather than "negative" as if the mold was somehow made from a Zono record. Bizarre!

 

I came across the i78S.org site last week on my PC, only to browse the Columbia labels. I'll take another more in depth look around there, thanks!

[Fran604g]

Hiya folks,

 

I took Nate's advice and opened an account with i78s.org (I actually hadn't seen or browsed the site before - thanks, Nate!) and discovered that in David Giovannoni's collection there are several 7" Standard (Columbia matrix) records shown with a very similar indentation as mine:

 

76-2

378-1

450-5

451-1

571-1

790-1 (2nd one listed)

872-11

970-5

1111-3

1518-1

1587-1

1868-1

1897-2 (tentatively)

1911-3 (tentatively)

3033-10 [M-64-1]

3035-1 [M-62-1] (both)

3040-1 [M-60-1]

3042-1 [M-73-1]

 

No. 261 is listed in his collection but it has no center depression. His is matrix no. 261-1, mine is 261-1E. No. 1897 is listed in his collection but I can't tell decisively if it has the center depression. His is matrix no. 1897-2, mine is 1897-2[illegible]. Some of the others on David's list may have the indentation and I just can't tell. I glanced at the few 10" records' images listed within the 7" matrix numbers block and only No. 1028-1 appears to have a center depression under the "green" label but, it looks to be a larger diameter than the depression found on the 7" records, and not as deep.

 

I plan to search through the Columbia labeled 7" records at the site and see if I can discover any shown with a center depression similar to mine.

Edited August 8 by Fran604g

[Fran604g]

I've found no other 7" records with a similar center depression on i78s.org. It's beginning to seem like this feature was unique to relatively few 7" Standard TMCo. & records.

[Percy_Dovetonsils]

Just a wild and crazy thought... I have several 7" Columbias with "VTMC" pressed in the runout- seems Victor was pressing records for Columbia at one point, and Victor did indeed have a center depression for their later 7" Dog labels. Possible?

[phonogfp]

3 hours ago, Percy_Dovetonsils said:

Just a wild and crazy thought... I have several 7" Columbias with "VTMC" pressed in the runout- seems Victor was pressing records for Columbia at one point, and Victor did indeed have a center depression for their later 7" Dog labels. Possible?

 

Victor never pressed for Columbia.  The "VTM" markings were added to Globe matrices when Johnson and Douglass bought them from the Burt Company in January 1902.  Columbia bought them back a few weeks later, and surprisingly (at least to me) did not efface the "VTM" before pressing with them.

 

Victor 7" discs continued with flush labels until 1903, which makes a direct connection doubtful.

 

George P.

[Fran604g]

On 8/7/2024 at 1:33 PM, Fran604g said:

Thanks, Nate!

 

Just to clarify, the matrix nos. are both incised, not raised. I see your Climax records have the round "dimple" typical of Zon-O-Phone records. Strange that my no.1897 has the reverse of that, as if the bottom mold used was a "positive" rather than "negative" as if the mold was somehow made from a Zono record. Bizarre!

 

I came across the i78S.org site last week on my PC, only to browse the Columbia labels. I'll take another more in depth look around there, thanks!

@NateO I apologize for a slight if not insignificant use of the word "incised", when to be more precise I should have used the word "impressed". The numbers of my records are most certainly of Columbia lineage, and were definitely pressed into the record's material with a tool of some sort.

 

To elaborate on another detail, these records have a "cardboard" kind of core to them as the material is evident in the drilled out center holes and can be seen in their outer edges. 

 

I don't know if this is particularly valuable information but there you have it. :)

[Fran604g]

On 8/7/2024 at 6:48 AM, NateO said:

I don't own too many Columbia discs, but here's the bulk of them, showing the different label styles (and reverses as well).

 

The two Climax records are marked "Pat. App'd For" in a small arch on the reverse. I'd also note that the Climax discs (and the two Columbias with the solid silver ringed borders as well as number 855) have the matrix information incised into the disc, instead of the more common raised matrix information used later on. That's what leads me to believe both your Standard pressings are more "modern". 

 

With your copy of 261, I'd definitely be curious to give it a listen. I'd bet money it's the later Harlan and Stanley recording. Dudley and Macdonough (and the Haydn Quartet, of which they were half) became exclusive to Victor and Edison quite early on, and their Columbia records seem to have been phased out fairly quickly. My Climax records feature the Haydn Quartet and Dudley and Macdonough, so I'd expect 261 to have incised matrix information as well, if it was their recording.

 

Edit: Fran, have you ever checked out i78s.org? You have to create a free account, but it contains a huge library of digitized early discs, including your Standard. Well worth checking out if you haven't seen it before!

@NateO, another favor to ask: could you measure the diameter of the apparent "ridges" at the dead wax on your records' nos. 1406 & 824 for me?

Edited August 15 by Fran604g