spring ends not catching ....

[xtal_01]

OK, so I have a 3 spring L door unit

 

When I took the springs out and repacked them, they didn't want to catch the center pin.

 

I remembered reading somewhere that all I needed to do is bend the end of the spring.

 

It took me 5 tries... first one spring would not catch ... then a different one would not catch.

 

Finally, they all worked.

 

It has been working for a week with no issues.

 

Today, one spring didn't catch  again.

 

Pulled the drum apart.

 

Saw the spring that was not catching ... bent the center ... great.

 

Put it together and then a different one did not catch.

 

Bent that one and now the center one is not catching.

What is going on ?????

 

Is there some special way to bend the centers?

 

I even made sure the pin has a good face.

 

What am I missing?

 

[phonogfp]

Make sure your bend is tight enough that the mainspring will continue to grip the arbor.

 

Also, don't allow the motor to run down completely.  The turntable acts as a flywheel and will continue to "unwind" the mainspring even after it has come to a complete rest.  Always leave a tiny bit of tension on disc machine mainsprings - just enough so the crank pushes back a bit when you turn it.  (This is not a problem with cylinder machines.)

 

George P.

[xtal_01]

29 minutes ago, phonogfp said:

Make sure your bend is tight enough that the mainspring will continue to grip the arbor.

 

Also, don't allow the motor to run down completely.  The turntable acts as a flywheel and will continue to "unwind" the mainspring even after it has come to a complete rest.  Always leave a tiny bit of tension on disc machine mainsprings - just enough so the crank pushes back a bit when you turn it.  (This is not a problem with cylinder machines.)

 

George P.

WOW ..... In my mind, this is exactly what I thought would happen.  When it runs down, it is now sooooo free that it would just keep going and wind past "zero" causing the springs to come unclipped.

 

The only reason I did this was because I watched a video where the person (who owned many many units) said to "let it run completely down and leave no tension on the springs" ... so that is what I did.

 

Once i get them to catch again, I won't make that mistake ... I will stop it with just a bit of tension on the springs.

 

Thanks!

 

[Jerry]

1 hour ago, xtal_01 said:

WOW ..... In my mind, this is exactly what I thought would happen.  When it runs down, it is now sooooo free that it would just keep going and wind past "zero" causing the springs to come unclipped.

 

The only reason I did this was because I watched a video where the person (who owned many many units) said to "let it run completely down and leave no tension on the springs" ... so that is what I did.

 

Once i get them to catch again, I won't make that mistake ... I will stop it with just a bit of tension on the springs.

 

Thanks!

 

 

That's definitely the way to go!

 

Also, when you say you bend the end of the spring, how exactly are you "bending" it? What is needed, is to close down the curl of the inner end such that it grips the shaft. It should require a small amount of pressure to slide the shaft into the spring. I position the drive rivet so it fits in right along side the very end of the spring, and not necessarily in line with the pear shaped hole, (assuming that's the style you've got, or is yours the type where the spring engages with a milled slot in the shaft?), I then rotate the shaft in the same direction as when winding. At some point, the shaft will turn and the rivet will snap into place within the pear shaped hole in the spring end.

[xtal_01]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

 

That's definitely the way to go!

 

Also, when you say you bend the end of the spring, how exactly are you "bending" it? What is needed, is to close down the curl of the inner end such that it grips the shaft. It should require a small amount of pressure to slide the shaft into the spring. I position the drive rivet so it fits in right along side the very end of the spring, and not necessarily in line with the pear shaped hole, (assuming that's the style you've got, or is yours the type where the spring engages with a milled slot in the shaft?), I then rotate the shaft in the same direction as when winding. At some point, the shaft will turn and the rivet will snap into place within the pear shaped hole in the spring end.

Exactly what I am doing ... or trying to do.  I know the end of the spring is soft (annealed) and bends easy.  I do have a pear shaped hole.  I am using two pair of needle nose pliers to curl it inward.  Just does not seem to sit tight against the shaft.  Maybe I am being a bit to gentle with it.  This is my first unit and I an bending it just a bit at a time.

 

I have two of the three catching now ... just took a supper break ... going to try the third (middle) one now since it has decided not to catch (and in the beginning it was the only one to catch).

 

Thanks!

[MisterJive47]

On 4/28/2024 at 8:05 PM, xtal_01 said:

Exactly what I am doing ... or trying to do.  I know the end of the spring is soft (annealed) and bends easy.  I do have a pear shaped hole.  I am using two pair of needle nose pliers to curl it inward.  Just does not seem to sit tight against the shaft.  Maybe I am being a bit to gentle with it.  This is my first unit and I an bending it just a bit at a time.

 

I have two of the three catching now ... just took a supper break ... going to try the third (middle) one now since it has decided not to catch (and in the beginning it was the only one to catch).

 

Thanks!

You have my sympathies. Just worked on my VTLA last month, which I had gotten for a good deal. Someone overwound the motor and sheared off the pin that prevents the winding gear from spinning on the motor shaft. Upon fixing this, I had the same problem of the springs coming undone. It took me THREE times disassembling and reassembling the chassis before I got it to hold.😑

 

If you are still struggling with it, my suggestion is this: hold the barrels locked together with some tension between them whilst putting them back in the chassis (enough where you can still hold it with grease covered hands without losing grip). Cradling it in a wooden jaw carpenter's vise helps to prevent the bull gear from spinning while putting the ping and winding gear back on the other end. Once you have the barrels in the chassis, as others have said, do NOT let the motor run down. Keep tension on it, then wind it all the way once you have it in the cabinet. Run it mostly out, but not all the way, and then wind it again. I left it under partial tension overnight to get the inner spring ends to reconform to the shaft. I've run it down on its own several times now with no problems since. 😅

[MisterJive47]

Also, I HIGHLY suggest you watch Brett Hurt's video on reassembling a 3-spring Victor motor. I made the mistake on not following his advice to keep the barrel covers loose and regretted it later when I needed to redo it.

 

[xtal_01]

34 minutes ago, MisterJive47 said:

You have my sympathies. Just worked on my VTLA last month, which I had gotten for a good deal. Someone overwound the motor and sheared off the pin that prevents the winding gear from spinning on the motor shaft. Upon fixing this, I had the same problem of the springs coming undone. It took me THREE times disassembling and reassembling the chassis before I got it to hold.😑

 

If you are still struggling with it, my suggestion is this: hold the barrels locked together with some tension between them whilst putting them back in the chassis (enough where you can still hold it with grease covered hands without losing grip). Cradling it in a wooden jaw carpenter's vise helps to prevent the bull gear from spinning while putting the ping and winding gear back on the other end. Once you have the barrels in the chassis, as others have said, do NOT let the motor run down. Keep tension on it, then wind it all the way once you have it in the cabinet. Run it mostly out, but not all the way, and then wind it again. I left it under partial tension overnight to get the inner spring ends to reconform to the shaft. I've run it down on its own several times now with no problems since. 😅

It took 5 tries but I got them all to catch !!!!!!!!!!

 

One mistake I made was listening to a video that said to leave the springs completely unwound.  Then I was told how they can over run and come loose if that happens.

 

Finally got it all together and am really enjoying it!

 

Just need a key and it will be complete (got a V key only to find it does not work on my  unit ... still trying to figure out what does).

 

Here is the machine working:  Facebook post of Mike's working Victrola

 

Thanks!

[MisterJive47]

Congratulations! You did a great job. Sounds nice! I believe mine would take the same key, which I think is this. The guy on eBay who is selling it wants an ungodly amount for it. ($525 + SHIPPING! 🙄)

[xtal_01]

1 minute ago, MisterJive47 said:

Congratulations! You did a great job. Sounds nice! I believe mine would take the same key, which I think is this. The guy on eBay who is selling it wants an ungodly amount for it. ($525 + SHIPPING! 🙄)

OUCH!  At that price, I think it will remain keyless.    I have less than $200 in the machine.

[MisterJive47]

Same here! 😂🤣

Not to mention, the example in the photo has a pretty bad bend in it. The guy must think it's solid gold or something. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Oh well, we'll just have to be keeping an eye out for when a SANE eBay seller has one listed eventually. 

[CurtA]

Buy this uncut wreath key and cut the groove in the flag end.  $39 vs $500...

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175429072538?itmmeta=01HZ85GNTFMCJN9SE926MNBS9R&hash=item28d863369a:g:4B0AAOSwDspilrvF&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CdB679nnnjHKOTurl3VF%2Bx20uiidn3ZiPuH1cO8pwRU0KJjzJrq07NcewqRZqrRaGDakxFJRYJVcvN4u8VomrxCEVygF00U3qvthKJcYLHvwQ2YKaSaOJQ0%2BDLbUBOo8Z0Fxj6T0fjzEZL0dFU%2FYoNADkmmxCD9Rz0XuFwvaKWbeq2tD8VduG1yzlLXk0edfiRwBQn%2F3M%2FbQpgQAIEpCU65p16fRpIYswRrns9GjYFwaXfHX%2FgbOwhzhOxQ%2BdNoz9bEDy7nsVIcsDVFpMOYPOoWDEQw%2F%2B98nslRdgTOQRa1|tkp%3ABFBMvN3Chfpj

 

 

[CurtA]

[xtal_01]

6 hours ago, CurtA said:

Buy this uncut wreath key and cut the groove in the flag end.  $39 vs $500...

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175429072538?itmmeta=01HZ85GNTFMCJN9SE926MNBS9R&hash=item28d863369a:g:4B0AAOSwDspilrvF&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CdB679nnnjHKOTurl3VF%2Bx20uiidn3ZiPuH1cO8pwRU0KJjzJrq07NcewqRZqrRaGDakxFJRYJVcvN4u8VomrxCEVygF00U3qvthKJcYLHvwQ2YKaSaOJQ0%2BDLbUBOo8Z0Fxj6T0fjzEZL0dFU%2FYoNADkmmxCD9Rz0XuFwvaKWbeq2tD8VduG1yzlLXk0edfiRwBQn%2F3M%2FbQpgQAIEpCU65p16fRpIYswRrns9GjYFwaXfHX%2FgbOwhzhOxQ%2BdNoz9bEDy7nsVIcsDVFpMOYPOoWDEQw%2F%2B98nslRdgTOQRa1|tkp%3ABFBMvN3Chfpj

 

 

I have been looking at this key posting.  Might well be the best way to go.  Thanks!

[Phonolair]

You will also need to drill out the barrel as the Victrola lock needs a key with a hollow barrel.

Larry

[xtal_01]

17 hours ago, Phonolair said:

You will also need to drill out the barrel as the Victrola lock needs a key with a hollow barrel.

Larry

That should be relatively easy.  I have a small drill press and vice.  Just got to make sure I drill straight.

 

Just wish I had my new workshop build.  My lathe, milling machine, welders .... all in storage beside the house in a tractor trailer till I get the shop built.

 

Thanks

 

[xtal_01]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:34 PM, CurtA said:

Buy this uncut wreath key and cut the groove in the flag end.  $39 vs $500...

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175429072538?itmmeta=01HZ85GNTFMCJN9SE926MNBS9R&hash=item28d863369a:g:4B0AAOSwDspilrvF&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4CdB679nnnjHKOTurl3VF%2Bx20uiidn3ZiPuH1cO8pwRU0KJjzJrq07NcewqRZqrRaGDakxFJRYJVcvN4u8VomrxCEVygF00U3qvthKJcYLHvwQ2YKaSaOJQ0%2BDLbUBOo8Z0Fxj6T0fjzEZL0dFU%2FYoNADkmmxCD9Rz0XuFwvaKWbeq2tD8VduG1yzlLXk0edfiRwBQn%2F3M%2FbQpgQAIEpCU65p16fRpIYswRrns9GjYFwaXfHX%2FgbOwhzhOxQ%2BdNoz9bEDy7nsVIcsDVFpMOYPOoWDEQw%2F%2B98nslRdgTOQRa1|tkp%3ABFBMvN3Chfpj

 

 

Bought it ... should be here in a week.

 

Thanks!

[ken53092]

I have seen plenty of discussion on leaving a spring totally unwound or leaving a bit of tension on it.  I believe one well known person in the hobby says leave them totally unwound, but he says that about cylinder players, I have not heard him say that about phonographs with a turntable.  I believe the comment about the turntable acting as a flywheel and continuing to spin causing a spring to disconnect is quite correct.  I usually leave my C-19 with just a tiny bit of tension, but I let my cylinder players all run down when not in use. Cylinder players do not experience the same kind of "flywheel" effect produced by a heavy turntable.  Just my two cents worth on the topic. 

[MisterJive47]

12 hours ago, ken53092 said:

I have seen plenty of discussion on leaving a spring totally unwound or leaving a bit of tension on it.  I believe one well known person in the hobby says leave them totally unwound, but he says that about cylinder players, I have not heard him say that about phonographs with a turntable.  I believe the comment about the turntable acting as a flywheel and continuing to spin causing a spring to disconnect is quite correct.  I usually leave my C-19 with just a tiny bit of tension, but I let my cylinder players all run down when not in use. Cylinder players do not experience the same kind of "flywheel" effect produced by a heavy turntable.  Just my two cents worth on the topic. 

You're 100% correct on the cylinder machines, and we all know how single spring motors can get weak from sitting under tension for extended periods of time.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've always let ALL my machines run all the way down. Never had a problem occur in my own experience. I could see the appreciation with the early "pear shape" hookup design though considering the trouble I incurred rehooking the VTLA motor. If transporting, I would definitely leave a bit of tension on the early disc motors just for my own peace of mind.

[Springmotor70]

I don't want to beat your dead horse either, but I usually leave a little energy in my springs as well, but for another reason...

 

In my younger days, long ago, late one night with a VV IV set up by the Christmas tree, I was playing a 12" Christmas record and the machine's single spring was needing a little winding to finish the record, without thinking I used a finger on the label to regain the proper speed to finish the record.  Just as the record was ending, I heard a loud clunk.  I had not thought that there is no neutral or free spinning.  The linkage is always attached to the barrel and I had turned it far enough so that the spring was all out and snapped off the end at the shaft as it turned backward.