King Phonograph Chicago IL - ISO information

[nicollejoy]

HI everyone! I am new to this forum. 

 

My mom acquired this either from my Grandfather or from an antique store. We are from Chicago IL. My Grandfather arrived in 1925 from Germany. I can find very little on this item/company.  From what I understand, it has very little value, with the exception of sentimental. 

 

But can someone tell me anything more about this phonograph, history etc? I am not finding it on a google search. valuemystuff.com appraisal, a part of Barnebys Group, indicated it was probably about 10 years or so years old if purchased in the 60s and credited it to the King Record Company so completely got it wrong.  I couldn't believe how far off they were. It was frightening. 

 

There is a crack in the top etc so not in perfect shape/condition.. some paint got on it at one point. .. I realize it has little to no value so I am assuming painting it another color will not diminish its value.

 

Can someone chime in and let me know more about this player? 

 

Thank you in advance! 

 

[Jerry]

Interesting. I had one like it, but in oak. However, mine had a "Mandel" nameplate. While yours has the Mandel reproducer, it of course has the "King" badge. You're correct, the monetary value is not high, but for most collectors, painting it will make it even less so.

 

This is what your grill should look like.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Jerry

[BenL]

You've come to the right place, Nicolle. 

Your King phonograph was made by the Mandel Mfg Co. between 1917-1918. Mandel was a originally a subsidiary to the Chicago Ferrotype Company, but in late 1916 they merged. Mandel became a major phonograph powerhouse through the late 1910s, they were one of the leading off-brands with national distribution. At this time, every business in the country wanted their own brand of phonograph, local department stores, music shops, etc. But producing your own brand could be costly. Mandel was one of the first to sell complete unbranded phonographs. Allowing any business to slap on their own tag/decal, to give the impression they were offering their own house brand.

The King Phonograph Co. had ties to a Mr. Nordin, who operated a Chicago based mail-order company. He bought phonographs at wholesale, branded them, and then sold them for just a little more than he paid for a quick profit. He kept running into trouble for misleading advertising by referring to his phonographs as "Victrola size". (A big no-no for the time.) Victrola was trademarked by the Victor Talking Machine Co. for their specific brand of internal horn phonograph. Even just referencing or comparing your phonograph to a Victrola could get you a call from Victor's lawyers. To get around this, Nordin kept using aliases, which didn't help his cause... By 1918 the National Vigilance Committee/BBB labeled him as a "Gyp Dealer" and he soon after stopped advertising. 

Late teens off-brands aren't the most desirable here in the collecting community, but there a few collectors (like myself) with a strong appreciation for them. From a collector's view: I'd hate to see it get painted and would encourage you to restore it.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by BenL

[nicollejoy]

Thank you! That makes sense. I wish my mom was still alive to tell me for sure where this came from. She was an antique lover but then she got some pieces from her father who lived in a bad neighborhood and his mouth got him assaulted so we took what we could. The police wouldn't even go into those neighborhoods My parents found an apartment for him in a nice safe neighborhood in a basement where he would be safe  So not sure. I dont know if I know of anyone who would know now where this came from.  Either way, it meant a lot to my mom. We have antique records in there. Some are German polkas but other are in English..  Thank you for that ad.. that is great. 

[Springmotor70]

The finish on your machine is still quite nice! - I know you said that paint got on it and I think you may be referring to the whitish area on the edge of the lid.  That is just the laquer finish a little stressed out where it got damp at one time and that will come off quite easily with the right cleaning or conditioning products made for historic finishes and some very mild material such as 0000 steel wool or Scotch product.   The crack in the lid is where the wood dried.  The rest of your machine is almost certainly veneer but it appears that the lids top may have been fabricated from solid wood.

Good luck!  Its always nice to have something that belonged to your own family.

[nicollejoy]

Top of the lid is a ring but I meant the top of where there s/b a screen there is some white paint. 

 

I think the balance of the machine is Mahogany. I say this because it is pretty darn heavy 🙂

[alang]

I agree that the finish is still in pretty good condition. What it needs is a thorough cleaning. Get yourself a tub of GooP or GoJo automotive hand cleaner. Make sure you get the non-pumice or creme variety. Then start to clean, always in small sections. Apply first with an old paint brush, let sit for a few minutes, then wipe off with a clean rag. You will be amazed by what difference it makes. Don't let the stuff sit on the finish too long as it will soften the finish. Move on to the next section and repeat until you're done with the entire cabinet. Let dry for a few days, then maybe repeat if you still think it looks dirty. If it's really ditry you can apply with 0000 steel wool, always in the direction of the wood grain, but make sure you don't scrape through the finish.. Good luck! Please share "after" photos when you're done.

 

Andreas

[CurtA]

"I think the balance of the machine is Mahogany. I say this because it is pretty darn heavy 🙂"

 

That is not a way to determine what type of wood it is...  ALL old wood is "heavy".  Relatively speaking - pine is heavy, walnut is heavy, chestnut is heavy, oak is heavy and mahogany is heavy compared to what? - balsa wood?

[CurtA]

Clarification, since I didn't read the ad  in its entirety:

Since the ad states that they were made in either mahogany or quarter-sawn oak, yours probably is mahogany.  My point was that weight is not a reliable determining factor of wood type...

[nicollejoy]

Sorry everyone about posting the WRONG appraisal here.. .. twice. I have reported those two threads and ask the incorrect appraisal for the perfume atomizer be deleted LOL.  Here is the appraisal I got. Wrong company etc. This company is a part of Barnebys Group.  They credited me for my appraisal after I reported with information from here.  Crazy. 

Phonograph Appraisal.pdf

[nicollejoy]

On 8/9/2023 at 8:59 AM, alang said:

I agree that the finish is still in pretty good condition. What it needs is a thorough cleaning. Get yourself a tub of GooP or GoJo automotive hand cleaner. Make sure you get the non-pumice or creme variety. Then start to clean, always in small sections. Apply first with an old paint brush, let sit for a few minutes, then wipe off with a clean rag. You will be amazed by what difference it makes. Don't let the stuff sit on the finish too long as it will soften the finish. Move on to the next section and repeat until you're done with the entire cabinet. Let dry for a few days, then maybe repeat if you still think it looks dirty. If it's really ditry you can apply with 0000 steel wool, always in the direction of the wood grain, but make sure you don't scrape through the finish.. Good luck! Please share "after" photos when you're done.

 

Andreas

Thank you! I definitely will!

[BenL]

18 hours ago, nicollejoy said:

Sorry everyone about posting the WRONG appraisal here.. .. twice. I have reported those two threads and ask the incorrect appraisal for the perfume atomizer be deleted LOL.  Here is the appraisal I got. Wrong company etc. This company is a part of Barnebys Group.  They credited me for my appraisal after I reported with information from here.  Crazy. 

Phonograph Appraisal.pdf 255.28 kB · 4 downloads

While the valuation isn't too far off, the information given is just ridiculous... For starters, cabinet-style acoustic machines were pretty much dead by the 1930s. Going into the 1940s, electric pickups and speakers were the norm. (To even suggest they were still being made into the 1960s is hilarious.) Also, it has no relation in the slightest to King Records, which was based out of Cincinnati, not Chicago.

I genuinely think you need to report this appraiser to the site, for how bad the appraisal was. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by BenL

[nicollejoy]

 

5 hours ago, BenL said:

While the valuation isn't too far off, the information given is just ridiculous... For starters, cabinet-style acoustic machines are pretty much dead by the 1930s. Going into the 1940s, electric pickups and speakers were the norm. (To even suggest they were still being made into the 1960s is hilarious.) Also, it has no relation in the slightest to King Records, which was based out of Cincinnati, not Chicago.

I genuinely think you need to report this appraiser to the site for how bad the appraisal was. 

I send an email to them and they credited back my fee but not sure where else I could report the appraiser to. It was so insanely off base I was absolutely shocked when I read it.  I understand the value isn't what I had hoped it would be but I wasn't thinking of selling it anyway. My mom would haunt me if I did LOL. She loved that piece.

[BenL]

Someone who can't tell the difference between an early 1900s cabinet-style phonograph from a 1960s record player, shouldn't appraise antiques. (It's as if they went with the first thing they Googled.)   

Edited August 14, 2023 by BenL